Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#2
EUGIM wrote:Ours dear friend Yves,promised to us the back of this deck...

* My train is ready to run Monsieur...

Hello Miguel and all,

This back is pink colored and "moiré" in french language = watered effect.

Sorry but no picture for the moment. B-)

But never forget that carmakers was using different backs (sure for some of them) probably.

Best,

Yves
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#5
what is the interest in this deck anyway? Is this the son of the Madenie from 1709? Surely, the 1709 deck would be more fascinating since it might (if Chosson's dating is actually late) be the earliest extant Tarot de Marseille II? Why the interest in Jean-Baptist from 1739? Do we have images from the 1709 deck?

(My friends call me Robert! :D )
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#7
robert wrote:what is the interest in this deck anyway? Is this the son of the Madenie from 1709? Surely, the 1709 deck would be more fascinating since it might (if Chosson's dating is actually late) be the earliest extant Tarot de Marseille II? Why the interest in Jean-Baptist from 1739? Do we have images from the 1709 deck?

(My friends call me Robert! :D )
Hello Robert and all,

Jean Baptiste Madenié is from Dijon and not Angers (a mistake in Catalogue. See pages 94 and 95 what wrote Mr Depaulis about this).
Like Pierre Madenié, he was from Dijon.
I think that some picture of Pierre Madenié deck are in Kaplan Book 2).
I have High Def photos from it but can't share this for legal reasons.
For the moment...
I am not yet sure that he was son of Pierre Madenié or from his family but woks on this.
Pierre Madenié was cardmaker from 1709 to 1740. Source D'Allemagne.
Jean baptiste dack is dated 1739. So a possibility of relation exist between them.

By looking carefully both of them one find some little interesting differentials details.

This decks are Very important for Tarot history in my opinion.

Train keep 't a rollin :!!

Salutations from Marseille City

Yves
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#8
Thanks you very much lamort,I think you did a great contribution here,for many reasons.
Just only for me I never saw the deck in colours.

1-If Yves is right this deck has too much in common with Pierre Madenie,so having in mind that Dodal is assumed as 1701-1715,this deck could be the second oldest besides Noblet.
2-The link with Conver is very obvious so very real.
For example we have here the example of a deck with a clear Tarot de Marseille 2 pattern between two of the Tarot de Marseille 1 as are Noblet and Dodal,because the XVI card being the same as Pierre Madenie,shows the flames hitting the tower,as show it Conver.
3-Regarding Chosson we have not yet any sure date till now.

Are the back cards closer to Conver ?

* So here I ask: Could be the possibility that Conver based his deck on this ?
Or al least knew it ?

From Pierre Madenie to Conver we have 51 years and form Jean Baptiste to Conver only 21


Here is the Pierre Madenie in B & W : http://blog.goo.ne.jp/valet_de_coupe/e/ ... 625d150ebf
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#9
EUGIM wrote:Thanks you very much lamort,I think you did a great contribution here,for many reasons.
Just only for me I never saw the deck in colours.

1-If Yves is right this deck has too much in common with Pierre Madenie,so having in mind that Dodal is assumed as 1701-1715,this deck could be the second oldest besides Noblet.
2-The link with Conver is very obvious so very real.
For example we have here the example of a deck with a clear Tarot de Marseille 2 pattern between two of the Tarot de Marseille 1 as are Noblet and Dodal,because the XVI card being the same as Pierre Madenie,shows the flames hitting the tower,as show it Conver.
3-Regarding Chosson we have not yet any sure date till now.

Are the back cards closer to Conver ?

* So here I ask: Could be the possibility that Conver based his deck on this ?
Or al least knew it ?

From Pierre Madenie to Conver we have 51 years and form Jean Baptiste to Conver only 21


Here is the Pierre Madenie in B & W : http://blog.goo.ne.jp/valet_de_coupe/e/ ... 625d150ebf
Thanks for the image of the P. Madenié.

Maybe if you spent some time comparing the different decks you might be able to figure out which one Conver copied? It could be any of the Tarot de Marseille II decks.. Chosson, P. Madenié, JB Madenié, or even a lot of other card makers that we have never ever heard of. I even wonder about the Conver, doesn't he have different initials in the Chariot? If so, that might indicate yet another earlier carver of his plates.

I know that when I took the time to compare the Chosson and the Conver last year, I was pretty convinced that the Chosson seemed older than the Conver, but it would be interesting to look through the Madeniés into it as well.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Jean Baptiste Madenie back card

#10
Another point of interest I think is about the XXI card.
Here we have clearly a woman at the center of the mandorla,as we see at Conver,and not at Noblet and Dodal,and also not at both Payen and also Chafard which is the closest to Conver being of 1747
So again a Tarot de Marseille 1 pattern in 1709
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

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