Re: Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#32
EUGIM wrote:That s for example having in mind Conver by comparison,both are riding towards to opposite side.

Okay. Well, I think it's probably just a reversed card, and I don't think it "means" anything. I do think that this one "feels" wrong, don't you? But that might just be from being used to seeing it the other way.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#34
robert wrote:
lamort wrote: In the XV, on the ground, next to the acolytes, they appear the same initials that in the one of coups, ¨P¨ and the indecipherable symbol.
Check it out:

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I'm not sure if I'm seeing the same thing as you are showing lamort? It's hard to tell if anything is there, but I am probably just tired and blind. :-B
Well the P next to the foot of the left acolyte is very clear, presumably the mark next to the foot of the right acolyte is also a letter but it is not so clear, an 'r', 'f' (or old fashioned 's')?
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#35
SteveM wrote:
robert wrote:
lamort wrote: In the XV, on the ground, next to the acolytes, they appear the same initials that in the one of coups, ¨P¨ and the indecipherable symbol.
Check it out:

Image

Image


Image

Image
I'm not sure if I'm seeing the same thing as you are showing lamort? It's hard to tell if anything is there, but I am probably just tired and blind. :-B
Well the P next to the foot of the left acolyte is very clear, presumably the mark next to the foot of the right acolyte is also a letter but it is not so clear, an 'r', 'f' (or old fashioned 's')?

Hi Steve & crew, I believe that the confused symbol is the same that appears along with ¨P¨ after the inscription ¨GRAVE PAR JP/RECORDED BY JP¨:

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x_x

Re: Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#36
robert wrote:
EUGIM wrote:Yves !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The suspicious man...
Right! Or Jean-Michel, or Ross, and probably others too.

I think it means "Engraved for JPP", but I am guessing.

Hello all, :-h

In french is written "engraved BY J P Pe" that means very probably Jean Pierre PROCHE

Yves
Personne n'est au dessus de l'obligation de dire la vérité.
Nobody is above obligation to tell truth.

Re: Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#38
nahhh... I reckon it stands for J. P. Phils (ie, Fils/sons) 8-}

I'm also unsure what to make of the I.P. on a deck that I would have expected I (ie, J) R (except that 'P' is the Greek 'R').

'Grave', by the way, is 'engraved' - so on the Ace of Cups, we have 'engraved by J .P. P[?]., and on the Chariot, which often identifies the engraver, we have the same two first initials of 'I. P.' (the 'j' and 'i' being equivalent).

To my eyes, the white letters on XV just show again those same initials, save that in this case inverted, ie, 'P. I.' - if it shows the name of the engraver, than this is another of those rare instances where the engraver leaves a shadow-mark that is unlikely to be picked up by a person availing themselves of the woodblocks and erasing the major ones on VII and other more obvious places (a little like the 'J.P.' - again!!!! - on the Dodal Moon, there presumably as Jean Payen).

Could it even be that the engraver is from the Jean Payen house, located somewhat further south than Neuchatel? The dates certainly appear a little wrong, but I'm wondering... and in that case, J.P.P. becomes Jean-Pierre Payen.
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association.tarotstudies.org

Re: Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#39
jmd wrote:nahhh... I reckon it stands for J. P. Phils (ie, Fils/sons) 8-}

I'm also unsure what to make of the I.P. on a deck that I would have expected I (ie, J) R (except that 'P' is the Greek 'R').

'Grave', by the way, is 'engraved' - so on the Ace of Cups, we have 'engraved by J .P. P[?]., and on the Chariot, which often identifies the engraver, we have the same two first initials of 'I. P.' (the 'j' and 'i' being equivalent).

To my eyes, the white letters on XV just show again those same initials, save that in this case inverted, ie, 'P. I.' - if it shows the name of the engraver, than this is another of those rare instances where the engraver leaves a shadow-mark that is unlikely to be picked up by a person availing themselves of the woodblocks and erasing the major ones on VII and other more obvious places (a little like the 'J.P.' - again!!!! - on the Dodal Moon, there presumably as Jean Payen).

Could it even be that the engraver is from the Jean Payen house, located somewhat further south than Neuchatel? The dates certainly appear a little wrong, but I'm wondering... and in that case, J.P.P. becomes Jean-Pierre Payen.
Hi Jean-Michel,
My first thought when I saw what looked like a JPP was the Payans too, but these cards are very Tarot de Marseille II generally, while the Payans/Dodal are typically Tarot de Marseille I. Not to say that it is impossible, Heri for instance is known to produce two tarots, one a Tarot de Marseille II, and the other a Besançon very similar to the Noblet a Tarot de Marseille I... so there are examples of this.

I'm starting to wonder if the Swiss cardmakers were buying up old French plates?

I seem to remember someone saying that because of tax reasons, many French cardmakers up and moved to Switzerland?

Do we know when Jean Proche lived?

Is there a record of a Jean Pierre Proche? Is that the same as Jean Proche?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#40
SteveM wrote:
robert wrote:
lamort wrote: In the XV, on the ground, next to the acolytes, they appear the same initials that in the one of coups, ¨P¨ and the indecipherable symbol.
Check it out:

Image

Image


Image

Image
I'm not sure if I'm seeing the same thing as you are showing lamort? It's hard to tell if anything is there, but I am probably just tired and blind. :-B
Well the P next to the foot of the left acolyte is very clear, presumably the mark next to the foot of the right acolyte is also a letter but it is not so clear, an 'r', 'f' (or old fashioned 's')?
Ah, thanks Steve (and lamort!!), after a nights sleep and Steve's description, I now know what everyone is talking about! Last night I was looking inside the red circle! (Well, it was 2 am, I was very tired). i-)
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

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