Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#1
I found this deck outrageous in many ways.
I really don t know if it is a Tarot de Marseille or a tdb,but...

His devil for example the most odd I ve ever seen:
ROCHIAS - XV.jpg
-Or his XIII with its name seems wrote after de positive impression of the mould:
ROCHIAS - XIII.jpg
XIII
-Or X card where the wheel turns to the opposite side,so the figures also:
ROCHIAS - X.jpg
-Or its XVI named LA MAISON DE DIEU,or also the XVII that has not the black bird as Noblet or Heri.
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#3
EUGIM wrote:I found this deck outrageous in many ways.
I really don t know if it is a Tarot de Marseille or a tdb,but...

His devil for example the most odd I ve ever seen:
ROCHIAS - XV.jpg
-Or his XIII with its name seems wrote after de positive impression of the mould:
ROCHIAS - XIII.jpg
-Or X card where the wheel turns to the opposite side,so the figures also:
ROCHIAS - X.jpg
-Or its XVI named LA MAISON DE DIEU,or also the XVII that has not the black bird as Noblet or Heri.
Hi Eugim,
Thanks for posting these very intriguing cards! I have seen them in a catalogue that I have from a Swiss Museum. I discussed the Devil in a thread on AT that you can find here:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=77067

In it, I said this about the card:
The second is much more mysterious. It is unique as far as I know of. The deck is listed in the catalog as a Tarot de Marseille, by "Jacques Rochias fils", 1782. The deck is overwhelmingly typical Tarot de Marseille II style, very much like the Conver. Two cards that differ are XIII, where it is actually named "La Mort" and the title is added into some open space in the upper half; and this card, where the Devil is shown with very interesting imagery!

There are so many things to notice here! The image looks very much like the Conver.. but there are some very striking differences!

Where to start?

Notice the wings.. they are Conver, TdMII style wings, but they have eyes on them. This immediatly makes me think of the Noblet with the red circles. Do the circles on the Noblet indicate eyes on the wings???

Look at what is held in the Devil's hand.. instead of a staff with either a torch or a pitchfork, here is it a bundle of snakes?

The penis on the devil seems to be represented, but how odd do those legs look?

There are eyes on the knees.

The stomach has an eye on it as well.. so maybe this cardmaker is just a bit "eye-crazy"?

Perhaps the most astonishing thing about this image is the second face on the top of the card. What he heck is that????
and then I took a screen capture of my desktop with all of the different images I had open to try to get the pieces ready for that conversation. :ymdevil: :ymdevil: :ymdevil:
http://tarothistory.com/compare/images/hell.jpg
:D

Personally, I wonder if the eyes on the wings of the Rochias Devil are related to the red dots on the wings of the Noblet? I think it is quite possible. :ymdevil:
Image


As for Death 8-x , I think it is another example that breaks the supposed "superstition" about naming the Death card. We have example after example of cardmakers doing just that, and I think that where he puts the title is an example of the problem of trying to add the titles in where it would cause a problem of losing part of the image.

Thanks for starting this thread, great stuff!
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#5
EUGIM wrote:Thanks you Robert very much for you links.
Agreed cento per cento !

But may be I am not regarding Noblet,I don t think that those red spots depicts eyes as in Rochias...

:-!
It's a great thread, I'm glad you went and took a look.

What do you think the red dots on the Noblet are?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#8
EUGIM wrote:Just a question.
Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

Jacques Rochias ( 1782)

*Are we agree ?

Cheers
Good question, I noticed that too. But the two images are certainly the same. I'm not sure.. father and son?

Let me find my book.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#9
Wow.

Okay, so the book (Schweizer Spielkarten 2) has THREE Rochias decks.

1. Jacques Rochias fils - 1782
This is the deck that I scanned the Devil from, and it matches your Devil too. This one has the second face on top.

Yes, your Death is from this deck too. So your images are from Jacques Rochias fils, not Joseph Henri Rochias.

2. Jacques Rochias fils - Second half of 18th century
The Death here also has the title and is VERY similar to the one you posted, but the hand sticking up under Death is different, so I can tell that it isn't from this deck. The Devil here looks just like a typical Tarot de Marseille II Devil.. just like Conver or Chosson.

3. Joseph Henri Rochias - 1816
Very similar to deck #2 above. Death matches #2, and Devil matches #2.. typical Tarot de Marseille II Devil.

All three decks were created in Neuchatel, and I would guess a family, doesn't "fils" probably mean "brothers"?

So the deck we are looking at images from, at least according to my book, is not J.H. Rochias, but rather Jacques Rochias fils from 1782.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Joseph Henri Rochias ( 1816 )

#10
Robert,your words were very interesting.
Regarding to Noblet,I sincerely don t guess what those red spots are.

-Insist about Bourlion when you talks about the shape of the wings,more closer than Conver,just I think.
BOURLION - XV.jpg
BOURLION - XV.jpg (14.01 KiB) Viewed 4877 times
*The shape and measurement of the genitals are also much closer.
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

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