Re: Two of Cups = Papaver somniferum

#12
Regarding the supposed link between both creatures and water element is aside and also having in mind JMD clear example,the one show by the Payen deck of 1713.
I mean related to the two fishes as we can see below there at the 2 of cup.
May be this is suggesting ondines ?
So doing a link with water as a love element ? / may be ?
Two of Cups-JEAN PIERRE PAYEN - 1713.png
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Two of Cups = Papaver somniferum

#13
EUGIM wrote:Regarding the supposed link between both creatures and water element is aside and also having in mind JMD clear example,the one show by the Payen deck of 1713.
I mean related to the two fishes as we can see below there at the 2 of cup.
May be this is suggesting ondines ?
So doing a link with water as a love element ? / may be ?
Two of Cups-JEAN PIERRE PAYEN - 1713.png
Combined with initials looks like a makers type mark, a crowned dolphin was often used by a maker to indicate appointment by the Dauphine; it was also used as the town mark of Dunkirk, but a little later than here (1730-1760); it was also a Parisian charge mark (indicating disclosure of a product for tax purposes in Paris) c. 1722-26; albeit as far as I am aware that was mainly used for gold and silver products but such examples indicate the use could be for something mundane in relation the maker, manufacture or tax purposes rather than in reference to some esoteric symbolism.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: Two of Cups = Papaver somniferum

#15
Here's what I posted to AT some four years ago, from data culled from Chobaut (in response to a post from Kenji) -
http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php? ... stcount=13

"Our Payen spent his whole life in Avignon, since he was three years old.

As far as "established himself in Avignon in 1710", Kaplan is actually misleading (not intentionally I am sure). What he should have said is that Payen "established himself *independently of his father*, in Avignon, in 1710."

Kaplan lists Chobaut in his bibliography, but since there is no asterisk it's hard to say if he's read it. Chobaut is authoritative because his research is constructed on primary documents. He actually studied the archives, the birth, death and marriage records, the records of the transactions, inventories, contracts, etc.

Note that "maître-cartier" - "master cardmaker" - is not a description of the quality of his work, it is a technical term meaning the "master" has established himself, he is no longer an "apprentice" working under someone else.

Chobaut on Jean-Pierre's father -

"Jean Payen (or "Payan" before 1700), born around 1654, son of François and Catherine Bourelly, established before 1686 as a merchant-cartier at Marseille; at Aix-en-Provence in 1679 he married Thérèse Geoffroy, daughter of Jacques; two of his brothers-in-law, Blaise Geoffroy and Jean Dreveton, husband of Marguerite Geoffroy, were master cardmakers at Aix-en-Provence.
"I know nothing of the reasons which made Jean Payen decide to establish himself in the Papal City [Avignon] in 1686. Doubtless, since the death of Guillaume Garet [the last noted master cardmaker in Avignon before Payen, died 1685] there had been no master cardmaker in Avignon, and Payen hoped to have less competition and be better protected from the French regulations than at Marseille or at Aix-en-Provence."
.....
"Jean Payen, followed by his sons, was extremely successful; he had many apprentices (...) Jean Payen was the first of 10 master-cardmakers of this family who worked in Avignon for the entire 18th century."

[snip details of addresses and apprentices - he became very rich - in 1697, he bought a paper-mill which his family owned until 1774. He died in 1731, appointing his eldest son Jean as heir. Chobaut also provides a genealogical chart].


Jean had four sons -

1) aforementioned Jean - 1680-1758; cartier in Avignon;
2) Jean-Pierre (our Jean-Pierre Payen) - 1683-1757; cartier in Avignon;
3) Pierre-François - 1687-1748; cartier first at Arles, then Avignon;
4) Armentaire - 1690 - ?; cartier at Arles.

The first son's story is interesting for us, since he became master-cardmaker as his father's heir, while he appointed his son the director of the papermill owned by the family. It was a virtual monopoly of Payens in Avignon.

Chobaut on Jean-Pierre Payen (ours) -

"Jean-Pierre Payen, baptised at Marseille the 29 June 1683, died at Avignon 27 September 1757, son of Jean, established at Avignon in 1686.
"Emancipated by his father at the time of his marriage, 2 June 1710, Jean-Pierre Payen established himself merchant-cartier and stationer on the 5 June, at rue Rouge or the Orfèvres, parish of Notre-Dame la Principale. On the 8th of July 1712, he bought a house and boutique, rue de l'Argenterie or Bancasse, parish Saint-Agricol, and there installed his industry and business.
"He appears to have had good rapport with his confreres in Montpellier: he had as apprentice in 1724, Nicolas Surville, and in 1730, Antoine Bacquier, both originally from this town; in 1735, his daughter Marie married Fulcran Bouscarel, merchant-cartier and stationer of Montpellier, son of Bernard, of the same profession.
"His eldest son, Jean-Pierre (1723-1793) would be a silk-merchant, then merchant-stationer and binder. The workshop and boutique of playing cards on the rue Bancasse went to the younger son, Joseph-Agricol."

Thus you can see that Kaplan's date 1710 is misleading; this is the year that Jean-Pierre Payen was emancipated by his father, and established himself as master-cartier in Avignon, *independently* of the other Payens. Kaplan makes it appear that 1710 was the year Jean-Pierre first came to Avignon from Marseilles; in fact, since three years of age he was in Avignon. 1710 is just the year he started his own business."
Image

Re: Two of Cups = Papaver somniferum

#20
EUGIM wrote:Hello Robert:
Both Payen are as you know at the Beinecke library.
Btw,lamort was asking to me regarding a post you did at atf long ago where you left many links black and white,of both Payen.
Could you post them here,because I did not found them yet...

P.S. : lamort opened an spanish tarot forum !!! : http://tarot.foroactivo.com/forum.htm

Cheers
I was looking for the links as well this morning, but couldn't remember where they are. I did a search on AT with no luck. Maybe they were here?

Found them:


Jean Payen:
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613338.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613339.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613340.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613341.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613342.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613343.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613344.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613344.jpg

Jean-Pierre Payen:
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613346.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613347.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613348.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613349.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613350.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613351.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613352.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613353.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613354.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613355.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613356.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613357.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613358.jpg
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613359.jpg
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

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