Vieville :Is it really a reversed deck ?

#1
Just for open the thread I never understood related to others historical decks this card if this deck is really reversed or laterally inverted.Never fitted to me,never closed to me.
I am talking about XXI card of ours dears bon ami Jacques...
I mean,if it is a real inverted deck,how it is possible that only the the Lion and the Bull are ?
So not the Angel and the Eagle ?
Please Robert my dear friend,don t comes here with the Notre Dame....
This is a fact if one compares this with the rest of all the historical decks.
Btw,ours Jacques shows the only pope blessing directly to his acloytes,so not seen in another deck till not shown Conver.
It s just to open and do the thang friends...

Eugim
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Vieville :It is really a reversed deck ?

#2
So.. let's take a look at the Vieville World card:
Image


As compared to the Tarot de Marseille, the "four evangelists" are in a different order. Here are a few samples of Tarot de Marseille:

Noblet:
Image


Dodal:
Image


Many of the cards in the Vieville seem "reversed" compared to the Tarot de Marseille, but in this case only the lion and the bull on the bottom of the card are reversed, so it's impossible to flip the card either way to match with the Tarot de Marseille.

So why is the order of the animals different on the Vieville than it is on the Tarot de Marseille? Maybe if we explore other examples of similar iconography we can find example that might help us understand if this was intentional? Or, was this simply a mistake by the artist?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Vieville :It is really a reversed deck ?

#4
EUGIM wrote:Well THAT is the point !
-You know Robert the whole historical sequence,so any coincidences could be possible.
Jacques is an outsider.
I just think he was intentional
He engraved his mould and took elements from priors decks.
Unfortunately, we need proof of that or we are just making things up or guessing.

Now personally, I find the Vieville to be incredibly interesting (notice the little "favorite deck" under my name? :) ) I too believe that it probably has elements that go back to older decks, and I think that the example I've given in the past concerning the pips indicates that in some ways the Vieville is "more accurate" for the iconography than the Tarot de Marseille is in the form that we have it today.

Take a look at this:
http://www.tarothistory.com/vieville.html

I think the Vieville has retained the pip images more completely, and that some details were lost on the Tarot de Marseille cards when numbers were added to the pips. I also think that you can see things in the Vieville by looking at the tops and bottoms of the cards that might have been cut off by the title and number regions when they were added to the Tarot de Marseille.

And finally, I also believe that the Vieville might have the original order of the evangelists, but I've never been able to prove it. So, if we can work together to find some way of proving that Vieville is the older version of this card because of the way he has ordered them, I'd be mighty proud and happy!

When I researched this before, I found images and architecture that matched both versions, so I'm not sure where we can go from there? I'll see if I can find a couple of samples, and maybe if we all work together we might find something.

Thanks too Eugim for your participation, I'm glad you're passionate about these things too.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Vieville :It is really a reversed deck ?

#5
Here's a great image of the Codex Bruchsal, c. 1220, from wikipedia:
Image


This one matches the Vieville.

So does this one from the first half of the 13th century:
Image


And Chartes Cathedral matches it too:
Image


If we do a search for "Christ in Majesty" we can find many images. Let me look for some that match the Tarot de Marseille. All of the images above are from this Wikipedia page on Christ in Majesty.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Vieville :It is really a reversed deck ?

#6
So is the Vieville "reversed"? Or is the Tarot de Marseille reversed and the Vieville the "true" direction.

I'm afraid for the Vieville that the damning evidence is in his own deck. It's Temperance:

This is how the card is printed in the deck:
Image


And this is how the image is when reversed:
Image


When the card is reversed, the banner can be properly read and reads "Sol Fama".

It's interesting though that the number also is reversed. It's possible as JMD has said before that the numbers can be additive or subtractive, but I personally think it might be an indication of numbers being added afterward.

So, I do think we can't "trust" the Vieville to indicate which direction the figures "should" be facing. Although, this doesn't take away from the puzzle of the World card because it can't be flipped either way to match the Tarot de Marseille. I think it also doesn't indicate that all of the Vieville must be flipped, perhaps some of his cards really are the "original" orientation. I just don't think we'll know that until we can find some actual proof of which way the earliest designs actually faced.

Andy's Playing Cards has a very good page on the Vieville, and he addresses the reversals. I find this quote particularly interesting...

"Curiously, only one trump, the Emperor, sits facing the left in most editions of both kinds of tarot."

Ring any bells?? :D
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Vieville :It is really a reversed deck ?

#7
The only near universal ordering of the four evangelists is that the two four-legged creatures, the Lion and Bull, are on the lower panel, and the Eagle and Man (or 'angel') are above.

SO this is not an example that will show whether or not the images are likely mirror-images of whatever the woodcutter had to work with. More likely 'evidence' will be what hands implements are held with.

...and as Robert has justed posted above, panels with clear intended phrases.
Image
&
Image
association.tarotstudies.org

Re: Vieville :It is really a reversed deck ?

#8
Many thanks for the images Robert.
Hello JMD !-Nice to see you back.

*Yes I am pasionate as Vincent Van Gogh...

-Well regarding the banner at Temperance I think that another possibility could be that it is somewhat transparent so the woman is seeing the motto form her point of view correctly and we form ours point of view see it reversed.

-Regarding if Jacques took elements from prior decks,I remember am article you did with the comparison of the eight of wands.There is amazing how closer is the 8 of Jacques with the one of Sforza Castle,I just think
8_wandsEight of Batons- Sforza Castle, Jacques Vieville, Jean Noblet, Nicolas Conver.jpg
*So remembering,having in mind,that both aren t numbered.
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Vieville :It is really a reversed deck ?

#9
I think, when you take the "reversal" of so many other cards in the deck, that Temperance seals a strong case that the Vieville is reversed. You can make up excuses about transparency as much as you'd like, but that's just not as simply an answer as "The Vieville is reversed". In this case, I'll go with the simple answer until a better answer can be found.

I think the "reversed" Emperor comment from Andy is very interesting, especially when we bring the Noblet into the conversation.

I'm glad you liked that article on the 8 batons, I do think that the Sforza Castle and the Vieville are better representations than the TdMs that we have left to us of what earlier deck's pips probably looked like, although, there are people who think that that isn't enough evidence either. :)

I'm glad you're passionate, but don't chop off an ear my friend.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Vieville :It is really a reversed deck ?

#10
The temperance in the Vandenborre however, that is of the same type, has the figure facing the same way, that and the numbering would suggest it is only the writing, and not the whole figure, that has been reversed.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron