Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#23
jmd wrote:I'm not sure we should assume that the Paris Pope (as, likewise, many other woodcut Popes) is sitting on a chair.... Instead, given the curvature of the image behind him, it may be that he is descending from having just given a sermon and/or blessing from a podium, many of which have a winding staircase with numerous carvings thereon.
I agree, I am not sure there is a chair either, there is a feeling of descending motion, that red pole running diagonally from top to bottom, is it a staff he is holding or a banister he is leaning on?
It may also be worth noting that on the Paris (as on a number of other decks) the Pope's gloves (or hands) depict stigmata... yet, interestingly, the depiction of the stigmata on both this deck and the Geoffroy shows a double circle (a 'doughnut'), symbolically used to refer to Jews.
It is not so clear here I think as on the Geofroy, and with the red stencilling may imply that stigmata is meant to be represented, though I am not sure how 'usual' that is. Also the decorative figures or holy name may be in round medalions embroidered on the back of the glove, for example see photos here:

http://dappledphotos.blogspot.com/2006/ ... loves.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_cQ2xhpZfenk/S ... oves+i.JPG

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_cQ2xhpZfenk/S ... +glove.JPG
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#24
Thank you very much Steve,very interesting information.
Now comes to my mind an older debate about if the figure depicted in this card is really a Pope or a bishop.
As is mentioned in he first link you gave to us :" Liturgical gloves (chirothecœ, called also at an earlier date manicœ, wanti,) are a liturgical adornment reserved for bishops and cardinals."
Well tied this with that only the bishops holds a crosier...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosier
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#25
EUGIM wrote:Now comes to my mind an older debate about if the figure depicted in this card is really a Pope or a bishop.
In this deck at least the papal crown and key clearly point to 'pope' I think.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#27
robert wrote:This pope holds the triple cross.
Ah yes, of course it is, the key of St. Peter and the triple cross:
http://listverse.com/wp-content/uploads ... vestro.jpg

Like the Geofroy, with which it also shares the doughnut ring gloves!

"The three-barred Papal Cross shown on this page is used only for extraordinary ceremonial occasions, such as opening the Holy Door. And whilst the occasion might include some sort of procession, this cross is not strictly speaking a Processional Cross; rather, it is used as an archbishop would use his crozier".
http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/papal.html
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#28
SteveM wrote:
robert wrote:This pope holds the triple cross.
Ah yes, of course it is, the key of St. Peter and the triple cross:
http://listverse.com/wp-content/uploads ... vestro.jpg

Like the Geofroy, with which it also shares the doughnut ring gloves!
As both the popes with keys have the 'stigmata' does this identify them with St. Peter who was also crucified?

http://www.allsaintsofamerica.org/marty ... /nmrl5.jpg
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#29
jmd wrote: on the significance of the Sphinx... and I am left to wonder why did, specifically, did the artist/woodcutter of the Paris deck include such, in contradistinction to what is commonly the case with images of the Pope.

It may also be worth noting that on the Paris (as on a number of other decks) the Pope's gloves (or hands) depict stigmata... yet, interestingly, the depiction of the stigmata on both this deck and the Geoffroy shows a double circle (a 'doughnut'), symbolically used to refer to Jews.
Is that also a pyramid beside the sphinx? Is the image catholic or anti-catholic do you thinK? If anti-catholic, then an identification of catholicism with idolatry and paganism perhaps. If catholic, then the triumph of christianity over paganism? In relation to the 'stigmata', remember too that St. Peter was also crucified, and at the end of the sixteenth century Pope Sixtus had the obelisk from the circus where St. Peter was crucified dug up, repaired and christianised (an iron cross put on top of of the pyramidon , the words "Behold the Cross of the Lord! Depart ye hostile powers! The Lion of the tribe of Judah hath prevailed! Christ conquers, Christ is King, Christ is Emperor! May Christ protect His people from all evil!" inscribed at its base. Obelisks were dug up, christianised and used as pilgrims markers to the lead them to the churches at whose facades they stood. The one in St. Peters square, one which had overlooked the crucifixion of St. Peter, is now 'topped' by the cross and used in tribute to the first Bishop of Rome as a marker of the triumph of Christianity. Just as they were initially brought to Rome as trophies of Roman conquest, so later they were resurrected by the Popes of the late 16th and 17th century as emblems of the Christian triumph over paganism.

quote:
"This obelisk was brought to Rome by Caligula in the year 40 of
our era, so marking the date when S. Peter is related to have baptized
the centurion Cornelius, and in him, and his kinsmen and friends
of the same cohort of Italian volunteers, to have opened the Gospel
to the Gentiles, and more particularly to the Italians and to Rome.
It was set up by Claudius a little later, (about the time that S. Peter
is said to have come to Rome, and to have been delivered firom
prison A.D. 42, reaching Rome Jan. 18, a.d. 43), on the spina of his
Circus on the Vatican ; and it was standing there in a.d. 65, a silent
witness of the first persecution of the Christians by Nero, and of the
crucifixion of the Apostle, as it has since been a witness of the con-
course of the Christian world to the triumphant festivals celebrated
at his tomb."

THE TWELVE EGYPTIAN OBELISKS IN ROME; THEIR HISTORY EXPLAINED BY TRANSLATIONS OF THE INSCRIPTIONS UPON THEM. EDITED BY JOHN HENRY PARKER.

Under the patronage of three consecutive popes during the 17th century Kircher produced inernationally popular works on Egypt and the Egyptian language, producing what later turned out to be somewhat fanciful interpretations of the hieroglyphics on some of Rome's obelisks; the Egyptian revival and references such as pyrmids and sphinxs of the 17th century are rooted at this time in the works of Kircher; just as later revivals and the popular motif of the sphinx as furniture motif was based on the conquest of Egypt by Napolean.

Frontpiece to Kircher's Oedipus Egyptiacus

Image
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#30
I'm going to pick the descriptions up again... So back to the Pope.
Image


And here are a few more Popes to join him.

Vieville:
Image


Conver:
Image


Dodal:
Image


Geoffroy:
Image


Noblet:
Image


This is a very strange depiction of a Pope, one of the oddest that I can think of in the Tarot. Whatever it is behind him is certainly meant to represent something. In a way, it reminds me of cloth or paper, especially the way that it curls at the top right. It's hard to make out entirely because of his triple cross. It doesn't look like it is attached to the Pope though, we can see his red robe quite plainly. It might be carved wood, and as JMD has suggested he might be descending off of some sort of pulpit.

That he holds the key like the Popess is also interesting. This pope is not "blessing" like he is in the Tarot de Marseille model.

I'm curious too as to why he is looking over his shoulder? His whole body seems to be in a very strange pose.

I'm under the impression for some reason that the gloves he wears are not unusual for a pope? Do we know anything about them historically or are they an invention of tarot?

Here is image of a Pope with some carved figures on his throne, although I grabbed it years ago.. It is supposedly a "Portuguese early 16th century painting of Saint Peter", but I'm not sure of that:
http://www.univ-ab.pt/disciplinas/dchs/ ... eviseu.jpg

It's interesting that here St. Peter himself holds a single key, no staff, and holds his hand in blessing.

Perhaps before the Chair of St Peter was rebuilt in the 1600s, there was a concept of St Peter sitting in an ornate chair with figures as we tend to see in the Paris and hints of in the Vieville? It's an avenue that some research might help verify.

I also wonder what is happening in the bottom right area? I thought at first that it was a little bush and a hill outside, then I thought maybe it was a pillow or something?

A very strange Pope indeed.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

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