Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#11
lamort wrote:Thanks for the pleasant welcome and scanning backcard Robert!
My English is quite bad, I hope can understand to me.
With respect to the similarity between backcards of the Noblet, Vieville and Parisian decks and the crossings on LEPAPE gloves is very interesting, perhaps the other similarity that you do not remember is with the marks of ¨duck feets¨ that are in the right arm of LEMPEREVR of the Noblet deck:

Image


Well, I will continue taking a walk by this town; reading, discussing and learning… Saludos!
Hello lamort,

You're English is very, very good. Would you like to hear my Spanish?
"Donde esta le biblioteca?", "Hola, me llamo es Roberto", and the most helpful of all... "Silencio en la clase!"
So please, I admire you for being able to communicate in more than one language, you're doing great and I promise to ask if I ever am not sure what you are asking.

Yes! The Emperor is where I had seen it but could not remember, thank you! I'm looking forward to exploring these old decks more with you.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#12
EUGIM wrote:1-Regarding to I,XIII and XV:Well is a fact that all go towards the same side
But we really have no way of knowing which way was the first way. I personally suspect that it's not one or the other, but that what we have now is a mixture of reversed and non-reversed images. I don't think we'll know for many of these cards which way is the "correct" way unless we can discover what the original version is and what it looks like (and I'm not counting on that)!
EUGIM wrote:2-LA PAPESSE: Just for me Catelin Geoffroy,TdP and Vieville tarots show the book closed.
So another detail that let s me thinking again that may be Vieville (1643) based his deck on an older mould.
I think the book looks open on the Vieville! In fact, I've wondered many time if it is actually a book at all, if you look at the border going around it, it seems a bit odd. But if it IS a book, it's open isn't it? But I think you might be right in thinking that in earlier images she the book is not open. What other early versions can we check? What can you find?
EUGIM wrote:3-XXI /Vieville: I remark the point that only the lion and bull are inverted,so don t fit for me yet the theory about a "reversed deck".
For example,as far as I know the V card of Vieville is the only deck that how that the Pope is blessing the acolytes "directly".
He is looking to both,blessing both.His facing both.he is watching to both.
I agree about the animals, it isn't just reversed, it is mixed up. I'll start a new thread to discuss this because it's something that's bothered me for a long time.
As for the Pope, let's look at that when we discuss the Pope card, shall we?
EUGIM wrote:4-About the date of the TdP I only found at the only serious source I have (thanks Yves),the book "Tarot Jeu et Magie" tha Monsieur Depaulis dtaed it " premiere moitie du XVII s."
I can t find the 2 de deniers or the 2 de coupee.
I have the 2s, but they aren't going to be much help. There is no date on the deck so as far as I know the dating is actually a guess (and probably a very good guess, and most likely a guess by Depaulis?).
EUGIM wrote:5-Just to think about it : Why the Pope has a beard on all the Tarot de Marseille decks? (BTW:Has it the Pope of TdP ? )
Let's get to the pope next!
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#13
Here is the Tarot de Paris Pope:
Image


And here are a few more Popes to join him.

Vieville:
Image


Conver:
Image


Dodal:
Image


Geoffroy:
Image


Noblet:
Image


Would someone else be kind enough to start this off by describing the details of the Tarot de Paris Pope that they find interesting?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#15
robert wrote:Here is the Tarot de Paris Pope:
Image


Would someone else be kind enough to start this off by describing the details of the Tarot de Paris Pope that they find interesting?
What is the relevance of the sphinx?

In his lecture on psalm 119:144 (The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.) 1513/14 Martin Luther interpreted the Sphinx as "murderous ignorance" that kills those who do not understand the testimonies of God, i.e., divine scripture.

The Sphinx is also taken as an emblem of ignorance by Alciato:

quote:
What monster is that?

Image


It is the Sphinx.

Why does it have the bright face of a virgin, the feathers of a bird, and the limbs of a lion?

Ignorance of things has taken on this appearance: which is to say that the root cause of so much evil is threefold. Some men are made ignorant by levity of mind, some by seductive pleasure, and some by arrogance of spirit. But they who know the power of the Delphic message slit the relentless monster's terrible throat. For man himself is also a two-footed, three-footed, four-footed thing, and the first victory of the prudent man is to know what man is.
end quote


The Sphinx is also compared with Satan:

“Satan is the true Sphinx, who hath the face of a woman to entice and deceive, the claws of a Lion to tear us, and the wings of a bird to show how nimble he is to assault us; he lives upon the spoil of souls, as sphinx did upon the bodies; he did for many ages abuse and delude the Gentiles by his Priests and Wizards, with riddles and ambiguous oracles: there is no way to overcome him, but by hearkening to the counsel of Minerva, as Oedipus did; that is, by following the counsel of Christ, who is the wisdom of the Father; by this he shall be destroyed, and we undeceived.”

Alexander Ross Mystagogus Poeticus or the Muses Interpreter (London, 1648), p.393.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#17
EUGIM wrote:Hello Steve and nice to see you again.
Helps me but what is the link here with the sphinx ?
The Paris Pope is looking down at the sphinx sitting down at his side:

Image
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#18
SteveM wrote:
robert wrote:Here is the Tarot de Paris Pope:
Image


Would someone else be kind enough to start this off by describing the details of the Tarot de Paris Pope that they find interesting?
What is the relevance of the sphinx?

In his lecture on psalm 119:144 (The righteousness of thy testimonies is everlasting: give me understanding, and I shall live.) 1513/14 Martin Luther interpreted the Sphinx as "murderous ignorance" that kills those who do not understand the testimonies of God, i.e., divine scripture.

The Sphinx is also taken as an emblem of ignorance by Alciato:

quote:
What monster is that?

Image


It is the Sphinx.

Why does it have the bright face of a virgin, the feathers of a bird, and the limbs of a lion?

Ignorance of things has taken on this appearance: which is to say that the root cause of so much evil is threefold. Some men are made ignorant by levity of mind, some by seductive pleasure, and some by arrogance of spirit. But they who know the power of the Delphic message slit the relentless monster's terrible throat. For man himself is also a two-footed, three-footed, four-footed thing, and the first victory of the prudent man is to know what man is.
end quote


The Sphinx is also compared with Satan:

“Satan is the true Sphinx, who hath the face of a woman to entice and deceive, the claws of a Lion to tear us, and the wings of a bird to show how nimble he is to assault us; he lives upon the spoil of souls, as sphinx did upon the bodies; he did for many ages abuse and delude the Gentiles by his Priests and Wizards, with riddles and ambiguous oracles: there is no way to overcome him, but by hearkening to the counsel of Minerva, as Oedipus did; that is, by following the counsel of Christ, who is the wisdom of the Father; by this he shall be destroyed, and we undeceived.”

Alexander Ross Mystagogus Poeticus or the Muses Interpreter (London, 1648), p.393.
Hi Steve,

Thanks for joining in on the conversation, it's nice to see you.

I'm hoping to find more information about the "Chair of St Peter" or sometimes known as the "Throne of St Peter", I've found art which has similar types of figures carved on the chair of the Pope, which I suspect may be supposed to imply this special chair for the pope. Apparently it was replaced sometime around the mid 1600s and there is an incredibly ornate one now. I suspect the VIeville and Tarot de Paris are both suggesting this type of chair with their use of the figures in the throne. I'm away from home for the weekend, but will find a couple images early next week.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#19
robert wrote:
I'm hoping to find more information about the "Chair of St Peter" or sometimes known as the "Throne of St Peter", I've found art which has similar types of figures carved on the chair of the Pope, which I suspect may be supposed to imply this special chair for the pope. Apparently it was replaced sometime around the mid 1600s and there is an incredibly ornate one now. I suspect the VIeville and Tarot de Paris are both suggesting this type of chair with their use of the figures in the throne. I'm away from home for the weekend, but will find a couple images early next week.
I have never heard of the chair of St.Peter being decorated with sphinx's before!? (presuming you agree it is the figure of a sphinx, the image seems pretty clear to me). Not sure it is even a part of the chair (the figures on the papesse do appear to be part of the chair I would agree). Are you suggesting the papesse chair figures a frontal view of the popes sphinx seen from the side?

The sphinx took on new meaning in the 17th century through the work of Kircher, whose work on egyptology made him a sort of international superstar of his period, and much of which was achieved through papal patronage. Thorugh him the sphinx also became a symbol of the hieroglyphic 'riddle'.

Quote:
Bernini's altar also inspired the style for a later work in the basilica, the Chair of St. Peter, an imposing piece that decorates the apse of the basilica. Above the marble base, there are four figures of the Greek and Latin Church: Anastasius, John Chrysostom, Ambrose and Augustine.*

Above those saints are two angels and a throne symbolizing the authority of Peter. Three bas-reliefs tell the story of three key encounters Peter had with Our Lord: the handing over of the keys of authority in the Church, the washing of the feet, and Jesus, after the Resurrection, asking Peter three times, "Do you love me?"

*The bronze columns of the baldachino that is said to here to have inspired the style for the chair rest on marble pedestals, and each of these is decorated with the coat of arms of Pope Urban VIII. Bernini, it is said, having heard that one of the Pope's nieces was pregnant, sculpted the face of a woman in various stages of pregnancy and childbirth on the sides of the four pedestals.
quotes from:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/BERBALD.TXT

Pope Urban VIII was also one of Kircher's patrons;)

The wooden chair Bernini's reliquary houses was viewed in 1867 according to the catholic encyclopedia:
"In 1867, however, on the occasion of the eighteenth centenary of the martyrdom of the two great Apostles, it was exposed for the veneration of the faithful. At that time the Alessandri brothers photographed the chair, and that photograph is reproduced here. The seat is about one foot ten inches above the ground, and two feet eleven and seven-eighths inches wide; the sides are two feet one and one-half inches deep; the height of the back up to the tympanum is three feet five and one-third inches; the entire height of the chair is four feet seven and one-eighth inches. According to the examination then made by Padre Garucci and Giovanni Battista de Rossi, the oldest portion (see illustration) is a perfectly plain oaken arm-chair with four legs connected by cross-bars. The wood is much worm-eaten, and pieces have been cut from various spots at different times, evidently for relics. To the right and left of the seat four strong iron rings, intended for carrying-poles, are set into the legs. At a later date, perhaps in the ninth century, this famous chair was strengthened by the addition of pieces of acacia wood. The latter wood has inlaid in it a rich ornamentation of ivory. For the adornment of the front of the seat eighteen small panels of ivory have been used, on which the labours of Hercules, also fabulous animals, have been engraved; in like manner it was common at this period to ornament the covers of books and reliquaries with ivory panels or carved stones representing mythological scenes. The back is divided by small columns and arches into four fields and finishes at the top in a tympanum which has for ornamentation a large round opening between two smaller ones. The tympanum is surrounded on all sides by strips of ivory engraved in arabesques. At the centre of the horizontal strip a picture of an emperor (not seen in the illustration) is carved in the ivory; it is held to be a portrait of Charles the Bald. The arabesque of acanthus leaves filled with fantastic representations of animals, and the rough execution of the work, would make the period of this emperor (884) a probable date. What still remains of the old cathedra scarcely permits an opinion as to the original form. In any case it was a heavy chair made of plain, straight pieces of wood, so that it cannot be considered a sella curulis of Pudens, as earlier tradition held it to be. If the four rings on the two sides belong to the original chair (Ennodius of Pavia about the sixth century used the term sedes gestatoria as an expression universally understood in reference to this chair), then it was probably an ordinary carrying-chair, such as was commonly used in ancient Rome.
end quote from http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03551e.htm
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

#20
I'm not sure we should assume that the Paris Pope (as, likewise, many other woodcut Popes) is sitting on a chair.

Instead, given the curvature of the image behind him, it may be that he is descending from having just given a sermon and/or blessing from a podium, many of which have a winding staircase with numerous carvings thereon.

SteveM's post on the significance of the Sphinx is fantastic... and I am left to wonder why did, specifically, did the artist/woodcutter of the Paris deck include such, in contradistinction to what is commonly the case with images of the Pope.

It may also be worth noting that on the Paris (as on a number of other decks) the Pope's gloves (or hands) depict stigmata... yet, interestingly, the depiction of the stigmata on both this deck and the Geoffroy shows a double circle (a 'doughnut'), symbolically used to refer to Jews.
Image
&
Image
association.tarotstudies.org

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests

cron