Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

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Here is the catalog entry from the Louvre Atlas database. (Also the Louvre photo.)
It sounds like the chair was carved by the sculptor F.A. Franzoni, incorporating portions of the two ancient Greek sphinx carvings.

Apparently, F. A. Franzoni was a 17th c. artist who liked to reconstruct ancient antiquities.
Here is a link to a repro of a Roman chariot sculpture he did:
(I'm sure there are more scholarly references to him than this one, but for this discussion it will do.)
http://www.zhkis.com/browseproducts/Cha ... pture.html

ETA:
A little further googling shows tht Franzoni lived from 1734-1818, so it's more likely 18th c. than 17th.
http://books.google.com/books?id=6bOLJ3 ... t&resnum=1


The louvre entry:
---------------------------
Collections du Vatican

Trône d'une prêtresse de Cérès
Marbre
H. : 1,68 m. ; L. : 1,05 m. ; Pr. : 1 m.

Comme le trône du « prêtre de Bacchus », ce siège est une oeuvre du XVIIIe siècle, ici due au sculpteur F. A. Franzoni, à partir de quelques éléments antiques (une partie des deux sphinx).
Anciennes collections du musée Pio-Clementino du Vatican
Saisie napoléonienne, 1798
Département des Antiquités grecques, étrusques et romaines
Inventaire MR 997
(n° usuel Ma 394)
I am not a cannibal.
Attachments
SphinxChairLouvre.jpg SphinxChairLouvre.jpg Viewed 11391 times 30.12 KiB

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

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SteveM wrote:I can't find an image on line, but there is a statue by Donatello while in Padua c. 1446-50 of The Madonna with Child on a throne flanked by two Sphinxes with a relief of Adam and Eve on the thrones back.
Found one, Statue of Madonna and Child in Sant. Antonio, Padua:

Image


Quote:
“Of the seven large free-standing statues, that of the Madonna and Child worthily occupies the central position. Nobody was more modern than Donatello, nobody less afraid of innovation. But in this Madonna he went back to archaic ideas, and we have a conception analogous to the versions of the two previous centuries: indeed, his idea is still older, for there is something Byzantine in this liturgical Madonna, who gazes straight in front of her, and far down the nave of the Santo—a church with mosque-like domes, like those of the early Eastern architects. The Child is seated in her lap, as in the earliest representation of the subject: here, however, the Christ is a child, with an element of helplessness almost indicated, whereas the primitive idea had been to show the vigour and often the features of a biggish boy. Donatello's version is much more pathetic, as the little Christ raises a tiny hand in benediction. The Virgin herself is of unequalled solemnity, while her young and gracious face, exquisite in expression and contour, is full of queenly beauty. But there is still this atmosphere of mystery, an enigmatic aloofness in spite of the warm human sentiment. The Sphinx's faces, with all their traditions of secrecy, contribute their share to the cryptic environment. Donatello uses them as the supports of the throne on which the Madonna is seated; behind it are Adam and Eve in relief: in front she herself shows the New Adam to the multitude, on
whom he confers his blessing.”

Donatello by David Lindsay, Earl of Crawford LONDON: DUCKWORTH AND CO.
NEW YORK: CHARLES SCRIBNER'S SONS 1903

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

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If the Tarot of Paris Popess had a baby Steve, I'd have thought you'd nailed it. It does say a lot though that religious figures such as the Pope and Mary could be mixed with symbols such as the Sphinx. I get the sense sometimes that the period must have been sort of like the period today where all kinds of ideas get mixed up together and "sampled" and then new works are born of that.

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

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robert wrote:... It does say a lot though that religious figures such as the Pope and Mary could be mixed with symbols such as the Sphinx. I get the sense sometimes that the period must have been sort of like the period today where all kinds of ideas get mixed up together and "sampled" and then new works are born of that.
From at least the 12th century poets began to apply to pagan fable the methods of allegorie and simile by which old testament figures and incidents had been turned into prefigurements of Christianity.This is revived in the 15th century in conjunction with the humanist interest in antiquity. Ovid is moralised and roman triumphs appropriated to the worldview of Christianity; and it is in terms of this Christian appropriation that figures such as those of the sphinx need to be understood, what relationship is there between Adam, Eve, Mary & Christ (New Adam, New Eve) and the sphinx?

One (but not exclusive) way of reading the figure of the Sphinx in terms of Christian typology was as a type of Satan:
“Satan is the true Sphinx, who hath the face of a woman to entice and deceive, the claws of a Lion to tear us, and the wings of a bird to show how nimble he is to assault us; he lives upon the spoil of souls, as sphinx did upon the bodies; he did for many ages abuse and delude the Gentiles by his Priests and Wizards, with riddles and ambiguous oracles: there is no way to overcome him, but by hearkening to the counsel of Minerva, as Oedipus did; that is, by following the counsel of Christ, who is the wisdom of the Father; by this he shall be destroyed, and we undeceived.”

Alexander Ross Mystagogus Poeticus or the Muses Interpreter (London, 1648), p.393.
The Sphinx is related to knowledge and the fall, the fall of Man in association with the first Adam, the fall of the Fiend Satan in association with the second Adam:

572 And as that Theban Monster that propos'd
573 Her riddle, and him, who solv'd it not, devour'd;
574 That once found out and solv'd, for grief and spight
575 Cast her self headlong from th' Ismenian steep,
576 So strook with dread and anguish fell the Fiend,


John Milton Paradise Regain'd: Book IV (1671)
The concept of the Sphinx as Satan sometimes led to the portrayal of the Sphinx with a serpent body rather than lion, through association with images of Satan as a serpent tempting Adam and Eve.

Image

The Riddle of the Sphinx: with Man as baby on all fours, as adult and with stick in background.

The fall of Man and the Fall of Satan: Fall and Salvation from first Adam to second Adam over 77 generations traditionally split 21/56 related to 'tarocch' as meaning a 'geneological tree'?

SteveM

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

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SteveM wrote:... related to 'tarocch' as meaning a 'geneological tree'?
The Vocabolario milanese-italiano-francese by Eugenio Cappelletti (1848) gives as Italian and French synonyms of the Milanese Tarocch:

Tarocch. Tarocco, germini, minchiate. Tarots.

Tarocch. Borra, pedale, toppo, tronco. Tranc, grosse souche de bois, f., chantier, chicot m.

Some definitions from Florio and Cotgrove:

Tronco: a trunk, a stock, a log, a block, a stump, a stem without boughes. Also a bodie without a head. Also a troncheon or a bat. Also a loggerheaded felow, a block-headed dunce, a heauie-nole.

Pedale: a foote, a base, a foundation, the stocke or roote of a tree or any thing else, a foote-stale, a foote-stoole, a supporter, a stake or forke to beare vp any vine, hops, or trees, a prop, or stay. Also the measure or space of a foote. Also a mans stocke, wealth, or substance. Also socks, or thin dancing pumps. Vsed also for a mans off-spring, stocke, lineage, blood, or descent.

Toppo: a counterbuffe, a counter shocke at tilt./ Related to Toppáre ~ to counter-shocke or giue a counter-buffe. Also to finde or meete withall by chance. Also to snatch or take away. Also to set, to cast at, to plaie at or hold the by or vie at any game namely at dice. Also to put to a dore and make it fast with a haspe or latch or wodden locke. / A tóppogiuócare a tóppo, to play at gresco or hazzard, and then to set at euery chance or cast, or to set and cast at the by.

Chantier: m. A Wood-mongers, or Tymber-sellers, yard; also, a Staulder, or Wood-pile; also, a Vine-supporting pole, or stake (whether it stand vpright, or lye, as a crosse barre, ouerthwart; and (hence) also, as Treillis, or a rayle for the same purpose; also, a Stoope, or Pile, vnderpropping the banke of a riuer; also, a Gauntrie, or Stilling, for Hogs heads, &c. to stand on; also, a Tresle to saw Tymber on.

Chicot. A stub, or stumpe; or as Chiquot: m. A scale in the root, or end of a nayle; also, a sprig, or shoot of a tree; also, the stumpe of a tooth

Souche: f. The stock, trunke, or bodie of a tree; a log; also, the maine stock, or direct line of a pedegree, progenie, or familie; also, as Souchet; or, the root of the wild, or English Galingale. Souche commune. The descent of many brothers or cousens, from one father, mother, grandfather, or grandmother. Tant que tige fait souche, elle ne branche iamais.

Re: The tree of salvation and the fool.

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SteveM wrote: Tarocch. Tarocco, germini, minchiate. Tarots.

Tarocch. Borra, pedale, toppo, tronco. Tranc, grosse souche de bois, f., chantier, chicot m.

Some definitions from Florio and Cotgrove:

Tronco: a trunk, a stock, a log, a block, a stump, a stem without boughes. Also a bodie without a head. Also a troncheon or a bat.
Isaia 11:1 ED uscirà un Rampollo del tronco d'Isai, ed una pianterella spunterà dalle sue radici.

Esaïe 11:1 Mais il sortira un rejeton du tronc d'Isaï, et un surgeon croîtra de ses racines.

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isaiah 11:1 et egredietur virga de radice Iesse et flos de radice eius ascendet

From the latin word virga comes the French word verge (rod, stick, wand, penis) and the first character of the trump series hold what was known as the rod (verge) of Jacob (Patriarch of the 12 tribes of Israel who was 77 years old when he travelled to see his uncle and his daughters Leah and Rachel; a type of Christ, as shepherd and through connection with the anointed stone, bethel (maisondieu), following his dream of angels on a ladder, descending and ascending like the ranks of the suit cards.)
Also a loggerheaded felow, a block-headed dunce, a heauie-nole.
Thus not only playing on tarocchi as tree of our salvation (77 generations split 21/56) but additionally as the 'game of the fool.' 21/56 + fool.

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

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Very lovely. A painterly quality to the illustration. The figure in the middle reminds me of a Franz Hals character; Hals would have been a bit later than your deck. There's a painting called Jeune Homme tenant un crâne (vanité-1626) in which the figure has a similar hat to the middle figure; others by Hals show that hat as well. I get the sense that the middle figure is the one being duped, so I'm curious about your initial identification. Also, I am sure that you're aware of the current French definition of "bateleur" as tight-rope walker. In a scene which is reminiscent of three-card-monty players (street hustlers), the term's modern sense is more apparent. As for the hat, if you find portraits of popes of the era, I think you'll be struck by the similarity; note, too, that the wearing of the hat at an angle or collapsed gives it a jaunty, rakish aspect. Such a fine card. I'll try to check in nightly for 22 nights to see the rest of these. Thank you very much for both the site and the posting on this deck.

Re: The Tarot de Paris (The Parisian Tarot)

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Ariostel wrote:Very lovely. A painterly quality to the illustration. The figure in the middle reminds me of a Franz Hals character; Hals would have been a bit later than your deck. There's a painting called Jeune Homme tenant un crâne (vanité-1626) in which the figure has a similar hat to the middle figure; others by Hals show that hat as well. I get the sense that the middle figure is the one being duped, so I'm curious about your initial identification. Also, I am sure that you're aware of the current French definition of "bateleur" as tight-rope walker. In a scene which is reminiscent of three-card-monty players (street hustlers), the term's modern sense is more apparent. As for the hat, if you find portraits of popes of the era, I think you'll be struck by the similarity; note, too, that the wearing of the hat at an angle or collapsed gives it a jaunty, rakish aspect. Such a fine card. I'll try to check in nightly for 22 nights to see the rest of these. Thank you very much for both the site and the posting on this deck.
Hello Ariostel, welcome to the forum.

I'm guessing you are referring to the Bateleur card?

Here's the image that you mention by Hals:

Image


I think you're right that the middle character is being duped, let me see what I wrote originally...
robert wrote:LE BATELEUR
Image


Compared to Tarot de Marseille versions of this card, there are a lot of other figures in this depiction. When I first saw it I thought the Bateleur might be the figure in the fools ears towards the back of the card as I'm used to seeing the main figure there. Instead, it is the figure to the right that is our Bateleur.
Right, so it seems the "fool" is being duped in the middle of the card.

Do you think there is some connection to the Bateleur with a tightrope walker? I mean, is it just referring to the use of the stick? Or to the "juggler" aspect of him?

I'm not sure I know any pope hats that look like this, can you show us a sample of what you're imagining?

I'll look forward to your participation.

cheers,
robert