EUGIM wrote:-Well just my little idea Robert...
What is your idea Eugim? That's what I can't figure out. You post about them each having a baton in their hands, but leave it up to us to guess why? If you think it's important enough to start a new thread over, why not tell us WHY you think it is important and what it means to you, rather than expecting us to look at it and guess explanations?

I'm a little overwhelmed by so many disconnected posts today all short and without explanation. To have a conversation, I suggest you, at least, discuss what you find interesting about something, and that allows others to consider and perhaps change their views. Just pointing out a random similarity doesn't really give me enough to go on, so I'm left wondering what the heck you are talking about, and why you are bothering to bring it up without expressing why you find it important.

sincerely, I think most of the members here WANT to discuss interesting ideas about tarot. Put a little more effort into your post to express why YOU find it interesting, and give us something to consider, and I think you're likely to get more positive responses.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley


1-LE BATELEVR : A magician of this world changing effects of causes
2-XXI: The Anima Mundi the ruler of causes.
3-Both are linked
4-LE BATELEVR is the agent of XXI here.
He dispose the environment for the others figures of the decks,changing it if it is necesary.
The Universe is like a Mamushka.


I think you think there is something special about the Conver Tarot, above all the others Eugim.
I have a Camoin AND A Heron Conver, so lets get some things about it discussed.
According to Kaplan my Heron is a reprint of a 1760 deck by N Conver and is based on a Typical Tarot of Marseilles design. There are two N. Conver, both from Marseilles; Nicolas is 1760-1803, N (Nas?) is from 1840-1890.
Roubret is far far better at telling us what type of Tarot de Marseille is a Nicolas Conver. Here is a thread.. ... las+Conver

Now I gather you think that esoteric Tarot starts at about 1499? So you see a much earlier date than I do.

Now you look at the Conver and see the same drawing for a Baton/wand/sceptre in the left hand of Bateleur and Le Monde and think that has an esoteric meaning?
If you look at the Cary Yale sheet which is thought to be much earlier than the Conver you will see in the hand of the Bateleur a very different device. How about you take into consideration the artistic talent of the woodblock carver and the brief he may have had to design or copy the cards?

Now to these comments..
1-LE BATELEVR : A magician of this world changing effects of causes
So you see the Magician/Bateleur producing an effect in this World? Or he is the origin of what happens in this World?
That is an esoteric attitude and not in the least bit revolutionary. That is exactly why the RWS Tarot has a Magician- but I personally do not think the Bateleur is a Magician in an esoteric sense (as in the RWS)
2-XXI: The Anima Mundi the ruler of causes.
This does not make sense to me.
Anima mundi is the world soul, a pure ethereal spirit, which was proclaimed by some ancient philosophers to be diffused throughout all nature. It was thought to animate all matter in the same sense in which the soul was thought to animate the human. So the Soul of all matter rules everything that happens?
There is a grand design and it is reflected in these two cards or the grand design is played out in the 19 cards between them? So the Bateleur is the human manifestation of the World Soul and he by magic changes the enviroment if he thinks it is necessary.
Well I hope he is one of the good guys.
Or I still do not understand you.
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts


EUGIM wrote:1-Both has a wand.
2-Why ?
I once read a book about Pontus Pilate (cannot remember the name of it; however it was fairly speculative as to who he was, and where he was from), which stated that during Roman ‘times’, it was common to carry a ‘wand’, used for moving about the entrails of animals during divination so as to not dirty the hands.

It has also been speculated that the modern ‘magicians wand’ most likely originated as a camel riding whip/prod.


Hi Umbrae! Good to read you here!
I did not know that about the entrails divider lol.
I think the Rod of Aaron...
Said Moses: 'Throw ye first.'
So when they threw,
They bewitched the eyes
Of the people, and struck
Terror into them: for they
Showed a great feat of magic.

We put it into Moses's mind
By inspiration: 'Throw now
Thy rod': and behold!
It swallows up straightway
All the falsehoods
Which they fake!

But I was also reading about Palomancy, which is fortune telling by the use of small rods or wands. Apparently wo wands of birch tree were used- one stripped of bark and the other not. It was a bit like heads and tails of coins. You marked out an area- one good luck and one bad luck and chucked the wands in the air, where they each landed was god or ill omens. I would imagine the unstripped one would be heavier and fall straight down..maybe.
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts


Hello Robert...
1-I ve been thinking about what you said and I realized that you are right.
I left questions without answer.
2-The reason why ?
Well I assumed that you and all here who came from Aeclectic knew my beliefs so not to bore anyone here again (surely it s occurs without it ) So I just draw some thoughts.
3-My apology here please.
The Universe is like a Mamushka.


Hello Lorredan...
1-Any for me esoteric or RWS deck here.It was of a deep Christian Source as was known by the first Christian from I to III century.
2-Surely I wasn t clear before at all.
For me and to follow Robert enquire to me I will explain my point of view...
3-The whole deck of Tarot de Marseilles is an allegory of a trip to return to the Creator.
I mean the whole Universe.
4-I m agree with with you the Universe is infused by God and the Anima Mundi is her agent here.
The Soul is who makes the work of return.
5-I remember know when Jesus said he could attract all to him ...
It s the power of the Spirit infused also in the Anima Mundi as his agent at the material world.
6-If God infused all his creation (So Universe)each particle of matter has his presence,so God is "here".
But I think that the energy of his spirit is too much to us to support so here is the Anima Mundi the Great Soul to protect us and what amount of it we could manage.
She decide the amount. // For what ? - For the trip of the return.
7-Since 35 years I was very shocked about the very firsts words of the Gospel of John.
Cross that with the later thesis of quantum or David Bohm Hologram allegory ...
-The matter as an inmensurable field of consciousness / So God.
8-It is a matter of transmutation for me / Alchemy ? -Okay name it that...
All the Creation returning to God.
9-With regard to esoteric sources I m not on the 18 century french or english stream.
I m closed to Alexandria Hermeticism. ( I to III century until the first Nicea Council)
10-LE BATELEVR : As I said the Anima Mundi the Great Soul is for me an agent of the Spirit of God here.
He LE BATELEVR is an agent of the Anima Mundi here.
He is who manage the energy coming from the Great Soul towars this worldso to ensure not to damage us.
10-It s like a chain of energies.
Any esoteric here as 18 century Lorredan here please.The whole Corpus Hermeticum is infused by Crhristianism and Greeks Madam...
Just see the gospel of John about the Verb / Word= Energy / All is energy -The intense of that energy determines each particle of matter existence.
11-I expected been clear.

My regard.

The Universe is like a Mamushka.


[quote=Eugim] 11-I expected been clear. [/quote]

Thanks Eugim- now I understand what you mean.
The problem I have with this is the question "why was this group of images chosen for a game?" for indeed it was.
It must have come from another source- that so far we have not been able to discover.
Of course as individual images (like Justice) we understand what this means- but as a group (and its order of images)- its origin seems to me to be unclear.
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts


1-We have as a fact that at 1494 Italian Tarot arrived at France.
Just for me there the figures of the deck were entirely reworked. / Remember TEMPERANCE figure as an angel.
2-Sources of Tarot de Marseille just for me were absolutely different.Frenchmen engravers saw that old source and just pointed black and white.
3-The Italian Renaissance was fully infused by Neoplatonism on a Christian point of view as Marsilio Ficino did.
Was not a contradiction.All the body of beliefs of the first Fathers of Christian Church was build on Platon.
-Why ? / Because the first apostles came the "other" world and simply had to "try" to tie both beliefs.(John the best example for me).
-Where was wrote the Gospel of John ? / In which time ? / For whom ? ...
4-So why we could have images that mean two things ? // The Roman Apostolic Church Power looking for heretical "surroundings" till to today.
-What heretical ? / A creation returning to his Creator without theirs assistance ?
-A Church built on war lie and crime ? / I m also Catholic born and believe that I know "very" well it s history Madam...
That not the Church Of Jesus the Love of God please.
5-Returning to Tarot I see cross relations also between Majors and Minors:

The Universe is like a Mamushka.

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