Re: Tarot card alignment and symbols

#11
sprouts1115 wrote:Man you guys go off in different directions.
.... :-) .... Well, the simple thing is, that you counted in your creative idea from 1-15 ("The values are as followed: (K)ing 15, (Q)ueen 14, (B)ishop 13, (C)aviler 12, (J)ack 11, (T)ower 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, (A)ce 1, and Joker.") and something similar was done by John of Rheinfelden in 1377 (also counting from 1-15, though with 60 cards).
Found a neat article. http://www.wopc.co.uk/tarot/rider-waite/

"and the sequence of the majors has been altered from the standard Marseille pattern by switching Justice and Strength." I always wondered why he did that. It's there a thread that explains that?

The Jokers in the 1st deck kind of represent what I want to do in the 2nd and 3rd deck...more realism with swords, armor, shields, alignment expressions, oh my...
John William Waterhouse http://www.wikipaintings.org/en/john-wi ... solde-1916
The group "Golden Dawn" had knowledge about an old specific connection of Hebrews letters and astrological symbols and believed, that the Tarot had been modeled after this.
However, for the row of the Marseille of Tarot they noted, that their assumption led to ...

Justice (with scales)= 9th letter = card Nr. 8 = zodiac sign Leo
and to
Fortitudo (woman with lion) = 12th letter = card Nr. 11 = zodiac sign Libra

... and they felt, that there must have been an error by exchange in the traditional row of the Marseille Tarot. So they "corrected" it to the more pleasant ...

Justice (with scales) = Libra
Woman with lion = Leo

... just by exchanging the numbers of the cards.
Waite belonged to this group.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarot card alignment and symbols

#12
I like the idea of 14 trumps as the first Tarot deck. It makes sense you would start with 14 trumps with a 4x14 deck. It just doesn't make sense to suddenly have 22 trumps. I also think trumps were added on later, more is better right? History tells us that. I remember reading about a deck of 40 trumps with constellations. If you had to, what cards would be the 14 starting trumps? Obliviously, you would take out "The Fool", "The Tower", "The Star", "The Moon", "The Sun" 22-5 = 17 cards. What other 3 would you take out. Maybe take out the 3 Cardinal virtues "Temperance" , "Fortitude(Strength)", "Justice"

Using the old list above that leaves us with:

1 - Bagatella
2 - Empress
3 - Emperor
4 - The Popesse
5 - The Pope
6 - Love
7 - The Chariot
8 - The Wheel
9 - The Hunchback
10 - The Hanged man
11 - Death
12 - The Devil
13 - The Angel
14 - The World

Or would you do things different.
http://texasplayingcards.com

Re: Tarot card alignment and symbols

#13
sprouts1115 wrote:I like the idea of 14 trumps as the first Tarot deck. It makes sense you would start with 14 trumps with a 4x14 deck. It just doesn't make sense to suddenly have 22 trumps. I also think trumps were added on later, more is better right? History tells us that. I remember reading about a deck of 40 trumps with constellations. If you had to, what cards would be the 14 starting trumps? Obliviously, you would take out "The Fool", "The Tower", "The Star", "The Moon", "The Sun" 22-5 = 17 cards. What other 3 would you take out. Maybe take out the 3 Cardinal virtues "Temperance" , "Fortitude(Strength)", "Justice"

Using the old list above that leaves us with:

1 - Bagatella
2 - Empress
3 - Emperor
4 - The Popesse
5 - The Pope
6 - Love
7 - The Chariot
8 - The Wheel
9 - The Hunchback
10 - The Hanged man
11 - Death
12 - The Devil
13 - The Angel
14 - The World

Or would you do things different.
Well,
I don't ask me, what I would do, but what history did. We have the so-called Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo Tarocchi (surviving with 20 trumps - no devil and no tower - and 54 of 56 "small arcana"; one of the small arcana was lost late). It's calculated to be one of the oldest surviving deck fragments (c. 1450).

This deck - so art history - was painted by two different artists, one painted 14 special cards [13 trumps + Fool] and all the small arcana [so 68 cards], the other painted 6 trumps and nothing else.
Tarot History of c. 1980 answered the problem with defining, that the deck was complete (22 special cards, 4x14 small arcana as "usual Tarot"), but some cards (all of them trumps) were lost and "replaced".

A later generation of researchers found to the idea, that the 6 trumps of the second artist might not have been "lost", but just were "added" to a deck with 5x14-structure.

It was found in the work of the first painter:

0 - Fool
1 - Bagatella
2 - Popesse
3 - Empress
4 - Emperor
5 - The Pope
6 - Love
7 - The Chariot
8 - Justice
9 - The Hunchback
10 - Wheel
....
12 - The Hanged man
13 - Death
....
20 - Judgment

The numbers were not on the cards, but just taken from the Tarot de Marseille as the most popular version.

The result ...
0-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10- ... - 12 - 13 ... 20
... looked not caused by accidental loss of cards.

It looked, as if it has descended from the row 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12-13-14

Now later a specific information was found, that John of Rheinfelden (in the year 1377) counted for a 4x15 deck with 5 court cards

1-10 for the number cards
11-15 for the 5 court cards

There's a natural problem with the "0", "zero".
The Roman number system I, II, III, IV, V etc. didn't use it, the Arabic number system used it. In 1377 (JoR) not much persons in Europe used the "0", and also around 1450 it weren't much. It established with more use in the course of growing printing technology end of 15th century. The Sola Busca Tarocchi from 1491 has a "0".

From this observation a "0" used in a card game c. 1450 is not probable.
If we move the "0 Fool" on the "empty" position "11", we've one step repaired.

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11(Fool)-12-13 ... 20

The "Judgment" is according its iconographic idea a "finishing card" ... so we can move it to the "also empty" number "14"

1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11(Fool)-12-13-14(Judgment)

In the JoR-system the position 11 would have been the court card "lower marshal", the "Unter", a figure, which was often presented on playing cards as funny. It might well be, that this "funny Unter" has a rather old tradition, preceding the time of 1450. The promotion from "funny Unter" to "0 Fool" is rather natural.
Further we have, that at 11.11. in each year the carnival season starts (this also might reach in the early time of playing card production).

So that's it in short.

A longer version, a little old (from 2003), with some more complex aspects, is here:
http://trionfi.com/0/f/07/
Graphic
http://trionfi.com/0/f/08/
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarot card alignment and symbols

#14
Huck - Thanks for explaining and I have looked at the links. So the new list for 14 trumps would be.

1 - Magician
2 - Empress
3 - Emperor
4 - The Popesse
5 - The Pope
6 - Love
7 - The Chariot
8 - The Wheel
9 - The Hermit
10 - The Wheel
11 - The Fool
12 - The Hanged Man
13 - Death
14 - Judgement

I do know the trumps were not numbered and it does make sense the Judgment card being the last card. I've read a couple of times the Devil card was added. I think it makes sense to keep Death card as the 13th card. That is how 13 became the unlucky number. It is hard to swallow "The Fool" being the 11th card, but maybe it is was what it was. I do like the idea of the Wheel being the 10th card I don't know why; Mathematically it seems right. Any thoughts on the first 5 cards. http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Sermones ... _Cum_Aliis It seems this monk listed the trumps in order at that time.

The only thing I know is the Cary-Yale Visconti Tarot Deck is one of the first 3 known Tarot card decks, but I think it was like the Neanderthals of the human species. It's nice to research and look at the pretty cards, but it's not the link to the modern Tarot deck. Could the list above be the list of the first 14 trump cards. I wish someone would find a deck under some floor boards. I can imagine the vendors of that day imagining new cards to outdo the other venders that lead to the 22 cards we know today...
http://texasplayingcards.com

Re: Tarot card alignment and symbols

#15
sprouts1115 wrote: I've read a couple of times the Devil card was added.


The Devil is missing in surviving Trionfi cards sets, which, however, nearly always have missing cards.
I think it makes sense to keep Death card as the 13th card. That is how 13 became the unlucky number. It is hard to swallow "The Fool" being the 11th card, but maybe it is was what it was. I do like the idea of the Wheel being the 10th card I don't know why; Mathematically it seems right. Any thoughts on the first 5 cards. http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Sermones ... _Cum_Aliis It seems this monk listed the trumps in order at that time.
"De Ludo etc." is the first complete list.
The only thing I know is the Cary-Yale Visconti Tarot Deck is one of the first 3 known Tarot card decks, but I think it was like the Neanderthals of the human species.
I think, it's a deck with a 5x16 structure, which possible according the surviving 11 trumps.
It's nice to research and look at the pretty cards, but it's not the link to the modern Tarot deck. Could the list above be the list of the first 14 trump cards.

It could be, but there's no way to prove this. There might have been many other curious decks, which didn't survive. Why should just one of the first survive? It could, perhaps cause a prototype had more chances to be kept in the archive, but that can't be guaranteed.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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