Re: Plato and Virtue(s)

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debra wrote:
robert wrote:I don't know how accurate this is, but I found it interesting, and the author agrees that it is Prudence walled up:
http://www.ancientsites.com/aw/Post/1231045
Hunks of that web essay are plagiarized. The original sources include

http://www.louvre.fr/sites/default/file ... ntegna.pdf

and, apparently, excerpts from a book on Francis Bacon:
http://www.redicecreations.com/specialr ... haker.html

Thanks Debra. I suspected the source was questionable, which is why I introduced it as such, but the ideas raised seemed worthy of our discussion.

Re: Plato and Virtue(s)

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If we assume that the Virtues are "really" the same height as Pallas, and, from the height of the archways, have determined that the green and pink ladies in the background of the garden are "really" about 4/5 of the height of Pallas, then it works out that that Virtues are twice as far from Pallas as the ladies are (since the ladies appear to be exactly the same height as the Virtues in the cloud, but in order to appear so have to be twice as close to Pallas as the Virtues).

So, if Pallas is 10 meters from us, "the viewer", then the ladies are 5 meters from her, and the Virtues are 8.5 meters from her horizontally (calculating the angle from the ground at her feet to the bottom of the cloud as 34°), or with a hypoteneuse of roughly 10 meters, or 20 meters (for convenience, it doesn't really matter) from us.

If those arbitrary measurements seem too close, just remember that the ratios are constant, so (assuming that Minerva and the Virtues are the same size, of course), if we think the ladies should be further than "5 meters" away from Pallas, then you just have to more or less double that distance to get to the cloud.
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Re: Plato and Virtue(s)

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This is certainly a fun thread to read.

I hope you get a chance to read the "chariot" section of the Phaedrus yourself, Robert. It is Plato at his best, very complex and evocative. It was widely read and discussed in the 1440s.The nice thing about pictures is that they are simple, while what they represent can be complex. There are different kinds of chariots, too: the chariots of the gods are different than the chariots of humans. The PMB chariot, with two winged horses, is a goddess's chariot. When you have dark and light, and a man on top, then it's a human's chariot--something that Conver seems to have missed. See my post at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=31&start=30.

Virtue is a complicated subject in the Renaissance. When Martiano invents his game in c. 1425, the suit of virtues has only male gods: Jupiter, Apollo, Mercury and Hercules, each representing a different type of virtue, and not a chaste one among them. Chaste virgins have their own suit. He means manly virtue, in governance, the arts, eloquence, and heroism (see http://trionfi.com/martiano-da-tortona- ... -16-heroum, which Ross translated). But he is writing about a deck based on classical mythology, so of course that's what he means. In Greek, Arete typically means "excellence". It applies to all sorts of things. The virtue of iron is its hardness, of gold its untarnishability and beauty. If the word has a common root with "Ares", that's a fact about the evolution of Greek society from barbarism into civilization. Plato gave it a philosophical meaning, and Aristotle wrote about it in a different context yet. Christianity then redefined the word in its terms. In Renaissance Italy there were Christian Platonists and Christian Aristotelians, bitter enemies.

The online essay that Ross cited, mentioned Stephen Campbell's Cabinet of Eros, a book I respect a lot. Unfortunately Campbell's rather long and insightful discussion (about 9 pages, pp. 145-154) of the painting does not seem to be on Google books. I have time only to quote a few things.

Who is the Mother of the Virtues? She is imprisoned on the right, behind the wall, outside of view. Campbell says only:
It has been proposed that Pallas herself is the Fourth Cardinal Virtue, Prudence, and that all four are being called by their Mother - that is, by Wisdom - from her prison.
In a footnote he cites Nicholas Webb, "Momus with little Flatteries: Intellectual Life at the Italian Courts," in Mantegna and Fifteenth-century Court Culture, ed. Francis Ames-Lewis and Anka Bednaraek (London 1993), 69, More specifically, according to Webb, she is "Sapiential Wisdom, Truth or Virtue herself" (Campbell p. 344).

(Wisdom in Latin is Sapientia, which is different from Prudentia. In the Republic, with its four virtues, Plato is talking about Wisdom, which I assume corresponds to Sapientia. The Middle Ages knew very little Plato, mainly his Timaeus, and not his Republic at all. It wasn't until the early 15th century that people read the Republic and the Phaedrus, and they did so avidly (I mean, people of means); these works were in Latin translation decades before Ficino. See Hankins, Plato and the Renaissance. The Middle Ages did have some Neoplatonic works, but not many. Neoplatonism, as philosophy, is really difficult. There's also Middle Platonism, which was at least as influential post-1420: Plutarch, Apuleius (written in Latin), and after 1470 the Chaldean Oracles; the Neopythagoreans were in many respects Middle Platonists, too.)

About the broken lance, Campbell observes that:
Pallas bears a weapon which in Mantua around 1500 would have been fully suggestive of the negotium of a prince and ruler, of her acive engagement in urgent matters of state beckoning beyond the secluded domain of the studiola. Pallas routs the Vices with a broken lance. A broken lance had been presented to Isabella by her husband Francesco Gonzaga following his hard-wpn victory at the battle of Fornovo, the same one depicted in the votive altarpiece, the Virgin of the Victories, ordered from Mantegna (fig. 52).
We have to bear in mind that the painting was for Isabella d'Este's private rooms, and also that she was a consummate stateswoman in a very small city-state. In that vein, it might be significant that the other virtues show no signs of leaving the clouds and descending to earth. Isabella can't expect help from them; she has to use prudence above all. The "broken lance" motif also appears in another of Isabella's paintings, more than 20 years later, Correggio's "Allegory of Virtue". There the lady below Minerva has all four virtues on her.

About the olive tree, Campbell says that although it has reminded several viewers of Daphne, he thinks an epigram in the Palatine Anthology well-known by 1500 and imitated by Ariosto, has a more direct bearing on the imagery of the painting: "I am the plant of Pallas. Why do you clasp me ye branches of Bacchus? Away with the clusters! I am a maiden and drink no wine."

Campbell concludes, at the end of a long discussion, that the painting is an exercise in Lucianic irony, based on an essay by Alberti called "Virtue" (in Dinner Pieces; it's an essay I now want to read; Lucian was a Roman satirist). I hope you have been reading about "Socratic irony," Robert. Plato was a master of irony. The Phaedrus is full of it: for example, it is the loathsome dark horse, not the noble white one, that awakens the charioteer to the memory of true Beauty. That is a point the Estensi appreciated, as Campbell shows in his quotes from Isabella's resident humanist Equicola (pp. 256-262, especially 262; some of this, although not 262, is in Google Books). The Stoics were a subject of irony for the Estensi. (I've written about Equicola and the Estensi recently over at Vitali's site, starting at http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=317&lng=ENG and continuing on the next page, sections A4, A5, and A6. Isabella is in A5. Equicola is mainly in A6, although he is introduced in A4You can skip the parts before and after, and much of A4, for your purposes.)

In Alberti's satirical essay, Campbell says,
the beleaguered goddess Virtue deplores the fact that the gods only find time to see that plants blossom in season, and that 'they take pains to see that the butterflies have beautifully painted wings.'
Campbell quotes this in connection with the beautiful wings on the flying cupids. In this connection there is also Dosso Dossi's wonderful painting for Alfonso d'Este of Jupiter painting butterflies. In other words, if I read this isolated quote rightly, Virtue might spend less time in the philosophers' lecture halls and more time protecting the environment.

In this same vein, it seems to me, is Durer's engraving of "Hercules at the crossroads," in which Hercules protects Pleasure from being attacked by Virtue. Virtue was not always a subject of unalloyed adoration in the Renaissance, as I suspect I will find when I read Alberti's essay. Another author much admired by the Estensi was Erasmus. His Praise of Folly is another Lucianic essay in Alberti's footsteps.

Re: Plato and Virtue(s)

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mikeh wrote: About the broken lance, Campbell observes that:
Pallas bears a weapon which in Mantua around 1500 would have been fully suggestive of the negotium of a prince and ruler, of her acive engagement in urgent matters of state beckoning beyond the secluded domain of the studiola. Pallas routs the Vices with a broken lance. A broken lance had been presented to Isabella by her husband Francesco Gonzaga following his hard-wpn victory at the battle of Fornovo, the same one depicted in the votive altarpiece, the Virgin of the Victories, ordered from Mantegna (fig. 52).
Thanks for finding the explanation of the broken spear, Mike. A private emblem of Isabella d'Este. This is the kind of thing the meaning of which could never be guessed.

The Battle of Fornovo - 6 July 1495 - is of course the same as the "Battle of the Taro", of which Huck makes such a big etymological deal.
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Re: Plato and Virtue(s)

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Correggio: Allegory of Virtue

Indeed a broken spear ... or a lance.

Image

Dürer: Hercules at the crossroad
mikeh wrote: Who is the Mother of the Virtues? She is imprisoned on the right, behind the wall, outside of view. Campbell says only:
It has been proposed that Pallas herself is the Fourth Cardinal Virtue, Prudence, and that all four are being called by their Mother - that is, by Wisdom - from her prison.
From my personal view, I would assume, that Justice is the mother ...

Prudence as virtue of the spirit, Strength as the virtue of the soul, Temperance as the virtue of the body. Justice is the balance within the three.
Minerva-Athena isn't really the mother-type ... and she jumps out of the head.
Themis has usually 3 daughters.

And Justice is the highest cardinal virtue in the Mantegna Tarocchi. And the middle between the theological virtues and the three other cardinal virtues.

But this is just my personal opinion. I doubt, that those people in 15th century had all the same opinion in the virtue question.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Plato and Virtue(s)

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OK so it could well be Veritas locked up. Veritas is the Mother of Virtue the daughter of Saturn.
http://atwaatwar.wordpress.com/2011/10/ ... veritas-2/
I found this World like figure whilst looking for depictions of Veritas........
So I think that tree with human features is not Daphne......but Mendacium (Falsehood has taken root in the garden)
Therefore, he put both statues in the kiln and when they had been thoroughly baked, he infused them both with life: sacred Veritas (Truth) walked with measured steps, while her unfinished twin stood stuck in her tracks. That forgery, that product of subterfuge, thus acquired the name of Mendacium [Pseudologos, Falsehood], and I readily agree with people who say that she has no feet: every once in a while something that is false can start off successfully, but with time Veritas (Truth) is sure to prevail."
Aesop
So it would seem that Truth needs the Virtues to free her.
Ahhhh... Thanks for the broken spear, I still do not understand the broken spear analogy.
Huck it is interesting that those like Gonzaga that played Tarot had this obsession with Virtue and Vice.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Plato and Virtue(s)

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Well trying to find the answer on the web drives me nuts-
example Broken Spear? Pages and pages of prepared Asparagus.
So I have been reading books instead.
A Broken Spear/Lance/Jevelin has two specific meanings.
Peace
A battle fought hard and well, the combatant having been 'weighed and measured' and not 'found wanting' in that battle.
but......Mategna has used the Broken Spear in other paintings as in Saint longinus and the Lance of Destiny which is traditionally broken.
Now there is this other view of the broken spear- the Senturian who lanced the side of Christ has legend of having washed or cleansed the Body of Christ. So a broken spear is also a sign of something about to be cleansed...in this case the Garden... maybe....
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Plato and Virtue(s)

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Lorredan wrote: So I think that tree with human features is not Daphne......but Mendacium (Falsehood has taken root in the garden)

~Lorredan
Lorredan, don't you think that the words on the banner make this unlikely? Although they could be said to be ambiguous depending on whose words they are. The other figures seem to be labelled in a straightforward way.

From WTF Art History.
Wrapped around the human-tree is another banner that proclaims the same message in Latin and pseudo forms of Hebrew and Greek. The text is as follows:

AGITE, PELLITE SEDIBUS NOSTRIS / FOEDA HAEC VICIORUM MONSTRA / VIRTUTUM COELITUS AD NOS REDEUNTIUM / DIVAE COMITES

Come, divine companions of the Virtues who are returning to us from Heaven, expel these foul monsters of Vices from our seats.
The Mother of the Virtues' plea for help is:
ET MIHI MATER VIRTUTUM SUCCURRITE DIVI

Gods, save me too, the Mother of the Virtues
Like the tree, she's not 'labelled' in the same way. (The 'too' is food for thought.)

Edited to add/clarify: It seems significant that on either side of the garden we have a plea for help.

Pen
Last edited by Pen on 15 May 2012, 08:43, edited 2 times in total.
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Plato and Virtue(s)

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Lorredan, don't you think that the words on the banner make this unlikely? Although they could be said to be ambiguous depending on whose words they are.
Come, divine companions of the Virtues who are returning to us from Heaven, expel these foul monsters of Vices from our seats.
Hi Pen, yes I did consider that it was the humanlike tree's words- but it was the binding or bandage appearance that seemed to be a restraint more than an explaining banner.
Everywhere they talk about Olive trees and Daphne was turned into a Laurel tree and all that was left was her bright shining beauty. There is no bright shining beauty here in this garden for Apollo to adore.
When art experts talk about a painting and they are used to analogy- calling Daphne's transformation as Olive, seems a big mistake.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts