Re: The Importance of Tarot Sequence?

#21
Thank you for your post Mikeh!
I understand more now.
The hiccup that I see is Judgement/Angel position and Temperance at 14.
I see that my problems with the Hermit at 11 after WOF in some sequences, has been considered from going from 14 triumphs- to 16- to 22.
You see the Hermit looks like poverty in most decks except the Visconti- where he looks Jewish as in Covetedness, possible opposite to Justice.
Malatesta's Temple or at least before it was bombed looked like Tarot 22 not Ludus triumpi 14.
As does the Padua Scrovegni Chapel (Giotto )built late 1300 hundreds.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Importance of Tarot Sequence?

#23
Thanks for posting the Lollio, Pen.

And yes, Lorredan, I'd say Justice seems to change its meaning, between low and high end.

I will try to figure out what you mean by
Malatesta's Temple or at least before it was bombed looked like Tarot 22 not Ludus triumpi 14.
One minor issue: I didn't know Malatesta's temple (in Rimini) was bombed. It looked OK when I was there, at least on the outside: I had trouble finding it, on a day it closed early, and I couldn't get in. (Actually, I can't imagine what you mean, reading the description of the Temple. What do planets, the zodiac, and bunches of angels have to do with the tarot at that early date?)

And also
I see that my problems with the Hermit at 11 after WOF in some sequences, has been considered from going from 14 triumphs- to 16- to 22.
You see the Hermit looks like poverty in most decks except the Visconti- where he looks Jewish as in Covetedness, possible opposite to Justice
I assume you mean the PMB. Well, he's a devourer, I'll say that much for him. Isn't he Time, Chronos, the 5th Petrarchan Triumph, holding his hourglass? As such, he's also Saturn, Kronos, who was considered the Jewish god (worshiped on Saturn's day), another devourer of human flesh. He looks a lot like the Tarot of Mantegna's Saturn, too. He's definitely not poor. But covetousness is a stretch, much less an opposite to Justice.

I like to think in terms of pairs, too (and that's part of the charm of the chess theory, and also the Scrovegni Chapel theory, as far as they go). Regarding the Hermit, I tend to want to pair him with the WOF. The same figure is on the bottom of the WOF card, without his finery. And both have to do with time.

Maybe I should say what I mean by "Scrovegni Chapel theory." On the one hand, it's the idea that Giotto's figures influenced the subjects of the tarot. On the other hand, I have a crazy version of it that I've been playing with before you mentioned the pairs there, in what is probably a very different context. I'm not sure it qualifies as a theory; fantasy might be a better term. I've been thinking that at least one of the pairs--maybe three--comes from there: Popess, card 2 (Faith) - Hanged Man, card 12 (Despair). That's the clearest. There's also Magician (Prudence, at table, left hand raised, eyes to side, keeps her wits about her) - Fool (Stupidity). And the Tower, card 15, is Inconstancy, but I'm not sure what it's paired with; maybe the Pope, card 5 (Giotto's Justice). Either that or the Popess is Justice (for women, answering their despair) and the Pope is Faith. For me it's how the Cary-Yale, with 16 chesslike trumps that come from Petrarch plus the virtues (Fame/Judgment (Eternity), Death/Chariot (Chastity), Time/Wheel, Emperor/Empress, 8 virtues (including Love), could have expanded into 21 (dropping one of the virtues, Prudence), to make what was probably the "standard tarot" for a while. And getting another pair, Pope/Popess, in the bargain. Feel free to ignore this paragraph!

Added later: more explanation of the pairs. Fame and Judgment are a pair in that both in the CY have trumpets ( little like elephants-- rook--with their trunks(. Death and Chariot are a pair because both have horses.

Re: The Importance of Tarot Sequence?

#24
One minor issue: I didn't know Malatesta's temple (in Rimini) was bombed.
Mike, here're a couple of photos of how the church fared during the first and second World Wars -


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/art/tempioguerra.jpg

From Cetty Muscolino,Il Tempio Malatestiano di Rimini (Ravenna, Longo Editore, 2000), p. 89.

As always, click on the URL to get a much larger picture.

In the first war, the art was protected by bags filled with seaweed; in the second, bricks walled up in front of the columns and wall paintings - it seems to have worked both times, but the Allied bombs took the roof and apse away.

One strange thing about this church is its orientation, which is very much southwards, south-east. Catholic and Orthodox cathedrals (this is the cathedral church of Rimini) are always oriented east-west ("orient" means east of course), with the worshippers and the priest facing the direction of the high altar to the east.

Of course this building has suffered a lot of damage, but there are hardly any altars at all in it, even in the side-chapels (which are mostly empty anyway).

You can see from this photo -


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/italy2007/R ... G_1758.jpg
(there was some heavy machinery there when we visited, as you can see by going to the large photo at the link)

- that there is not much to be seen even in the apse (excluding the crucifix by Giotto). The "high altar" is not very high (note that in the second photo, from WWII, you can see that there is a normal high altar in the apse).

Sigismondo built his new church on the place of the old San Francesco church, but I don't know if he re-oriented the building in this direction. I presumed it might be oriented towards Greece, maybe even Mistra, which is in a SE direction. But on checking with Google Earth (use "Tools" and "Ruler" to draw the line), the line avoids Greece entirely and only encounters land exactly at the town of Derna in Libya (which is pretty good, considering that there is not much to hit in that area). But I doubt very much that their maps, and even the genius of Alberti, would have been good enough to do this.

I don't know if the SE orientation was deliberate, or if he were aiming for Egypt (the Libyan Sibyl?), or if it were just a rough calculation for Greece. Or, if the builders of the original church oriented it that way and didn't care about orthodox orientation for some reason. I suppose I prefer to think that Sigismondo had it oriented that way, and had it pointed the best they were able to calculate towards Mistra.
Image

Re: The Importance of Tarot Sequence?

#25
I don't know if the SE orientation was deliberate, or if he were aiming for Egypt (the Libyan Sibyl?), or if it were just a rough calculation for Greece. Or, if the builders of the original church oriented it that way and didn't care about orthodox orientation for some reason. I suppose I prefer to think that Sigismondo had it oriented that way, and had it pointed the best they were able to calculate towards Mistra.
The Temple was originally a Francescan Church and I believe orientated towards Egypt, the home of the father of all Monks- Saint Anthony the Abbot.

So I gather the Tarot sequence is only important to sequence interpreters? There seems to be many possible stories made from a sequence or scheme? So really the importance is in the rules or rule books (which are few?)
Is the importance for Historical research the subject matter over the numerical system?
I gather there is a consensus that the Bologna Tarocchini sequence of images is the possible prototype?
Maybe I am not making myself clear? I mean the number on the card, when it appears.
card 5 is Love......so when researching the decks you are looking for card 5 and things that possibly mean Love?

Ohhh Neptune, I wish I could articulate clearly and spear my fish.
~Lorredan


Is where the card goes more important than what is on the image? Virtues together before WOF for example.
7-8-9 ascending importance for points?
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Importance of Tarot Sequence?

#26
Thanks for the information, Ross. The old pictures looked familiar, so it is another case of my forgetting something I once knew. Ah, memory. The ones you took were very nice to see, as all I know are the ones of the reliefs. And thanks for the thoughtful questions, Lorredan. I will pray to Neptune.

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