Re: Tharochus Bacchus est

#21
I have been trying to get evidence that in 1505, after Alfonso's father's January 25 death, Bacchus was on his mind.

What I have is an account by art historian Wendy Sheard, in "Antonio Lombardo's relief for Alfonso d'Este's Studio di Marmi," in Titian 500, ed. Joseph Manca, p. 333):
Apparently as the first act of independent art-related activity after his father's death a few weeks earlier, on 1 April 1505, Alfonso wrote to his ambassador in Milan, Gerolamo Seregni, directing him to acquire the Bacchus by Leonardo da Vinci.
This work was then in the possession of the French, who were occupying Milan and eventually carted the painting back to Paris. Sheard cites (p. 356, note 114) Carlo Pedretti, Documenti e memorie riguardanti Leonardo da Vinci a Bologna e in Emilia (Bologna 1953), 153, and his Leonardo da Vinci inedito. Tre saggi (Florence 1968), 14-15. Pedretti in turn cites documents in the Archivio di Stato, Modena, first published by Giuseppe Campori in 1865.

Ambassador Seregni's reply to Alfonso was that the work had been promised to the Cardinal of Rohan (who was French and an erstwhile friend of the Sforza for many years, according to Lubkin in A Renaissance Court, p. 224, in Google Books). So it appears that Alfonso was indeed thinking about Bacchus just before the time the word "tarochi" appears in his court record in June.

The main problem with this information is that according to most authorities, the painting known today as Bacchus--the only painting of Leonardo's known by that title--would then have been called St. John the Baptist, as the title Bacchus wasn't given until the late 17th century after some overpainting of ivy and and a panther skin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacchus_(Leonardo)).

One possibility is that Alfonso thought there was a painting based on a drawing that Leonardo made, now called Young Bacchus and in the Academia Gallery in Venice (Charles Lewis Hind, The Drawings of Leonardo da Vinci, http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/l/leonard ... /drawings/). Alfonso might have known about this work from his sister Isabella, or thought it was a painting. Hind notes that this Bacchus is "clothed in a costume, just peeping from the sketch, of a similar material to the dress of Isabella d’Este." Here are the two drawings side by side.
Image

But since this drawing is in Venice rather than the Louvre, it probably didn't go to Cardinal Rohan. Either there was some confusion, or there is a lost painting that no one ever mentioned again, or even, the painting described in early 17th century France asof St. John the Baptist really was Bacchus in 1505.

If someone has access to the Pedretti material, to see what the letters actually said, it might be helpful.

Re: Tharochus Bacchus est

#22


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacchus_and_Ariadne
Bacchus and Ariadne (1523–24) is an oil painting by Titian. It is one of a cycle of paintings on mythological subjects produced for Alfonso d'Este, the Duke of Ferrara, for the Camerino d'Alabastro – a private room in his palazzo in Ferrara decorated with paintings based on classical texts. An advance payment was given to Raphael, who originally held the commission for the subject of a Triumph of Bacchus. At the time of Raphael's death in 1520, only a preliminary drawing was completed and the commission was then handed to Titian. In the case of Bacchus and Ariadne, the subject matter was derived from the Roman poets Catullus and Ovid. The painting, considered one of Titian's greatest works, now hangs in the National Gallery in London. The other major paintings in the cycle are The Feast of the Gods (mostly by Giovanni Bellini, now in the National Gallery of Art, Washington, DC), The Bacchanal of the Andrians and The Worship of Venus (both now in the Museo del Prado, Madrid)
We've not confirmation for a very specific "Tarochi" interest in Ferrara before 1515. In 1515 and 1516 there are many documents, with the return of the French soldiers in Italy and the publication of Ariost about Orlando, likely a "French hero" in Alfonso's eye.
Alfonso had a journey to France and England in 1504, possibly with some personal impressions about drinking habits in other countries. General alcoholism should have been far spread. France is generally considered famous for his wines.

Interesting finding ...

Image


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacchus_%28Leonardo%29
The overpainting transformed the image of St. John into one of a pagan deity, by converting the long-handled cross-like staff of the Baptist to a Bacchic thyrsus and adding a vine wreath. The fur robe is the legacy of John the Baptist, but has been overpainted with leopard-spots relating, like the wreath, to Bacchus, the Roman god of wine and intoxication.
Perhaps the later overpainting followed earlier (contemporary to Leonardo) jokes, which compared this version of Giovanni the Baptist to the youthful Bacchus. In usual Giovanni paintings the object wasn't so young.
Cassiano dal Pozzo remarked of the painting in its former state, which he saw at Fontainebleau in 1625, that it had neither devotion, decorum nor similitude,[5] the suavely beautiful, youthful and slightly androgynous Giovannino was so at variance with artistic conventions in portraying the Baptist— neither the older ascetic prophet nor the Florentine baby Giovannino, but a type of Leonardo's invention, of a disconcerting, somewhat ambiguous sensuality, familiar in Leonardo's half-length and upward-pointing Saint John the Baptist, also in the Louvre.
Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._John_t ... eonardo%29

This was made 1513-1516, short before Leonardo went to France himself.

***************

Later added:
actually I would name 3 of 4 pictures of Alfonso's studiolo (= "camerino d'alabastro") as "everybody rather drunken" with the only exception of the Venus picture ...

Image

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Worship_of_Venus

... with the title "Worship of Venus" and this might make also everybody believe, that he had drunken too much ... yesterday.

It even inspires modern literature:
Hey Alfonso! It’s Bacchus. Thanks for the call yesterday. I’m out in Vegas for work, but I’d love to meet up when I get back.

in "Sex & the upper East side" http://sexandtheuppereastside.blogspot. ... reaks.html

In the studiolo are mainly Titian works, but also Dosso Dossi (also active for Alfonso) has lots of Bacchanals:

Image

http://www.lib-art.com/imgpaintingthumb ... -dosso.jpg







Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tharochus Bacchus est

#23
Huck wrote:
We've not confirmation for a very specific "Tarochi" interest in Ferrara before 1515.
What about the famous entries in the accounts for June and Dec of 1505 (http://trionfi.com/0/p/23/)? Don't they count?

Thanks for the beautiful reproductions of the Dosso Dossi bacchanals. I had not managed to find the fourth one you posted on the web, although I know them both from books (the London "Bacchanal" and the "Bathers"). And I wasn't familiar at all with the first two out of the four Dosssos you posted, even though I have four books from the library on Dosso. Do you have links with information about these artworks,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... si_018.jpg and
http://www.wikigallery.org/paintings/38 ... nting1.jpg ?

If Leonardo's "John the Baptist" and the other painting taken from it are 1510-1515, then neither is the "Bacchus" that Alfonso wanted to buy in 1505. Unfortunately the dating of these works is guesswork. I don't know of any other painting that Alfonso could be referring to; all I know is the drawing that I posted, which has similar fabric to the drawing assumed to be of his sister Isabella.

I still would like to see the wording of Alfonso's letter and the reply.

Re: Tharochus Bacchus est

#24
mikeh wrote:Huck wrote:
We've not confirmation for a very specific "Tarochi" interest in Ferrara before 1515.
What about the famous entries in the accounts for June and Dec of 1505 (http://trionfi.com/0/p/23/)? Don't they count?
My accent is on the "very" ... 2 Tarot productions in Ferrara in 1505 and not much which follows. Ferrara has 2 not very solid years (the matter with the brothers and change in Bologna disturbs) and then since 1508 there is war and depression, cause the alliance with France didn't work.
In 1515 the French come back and look like the winner for some time.
Thanks for the beautiful reproductions of the Dosso Dossi bacchanals. I had not managed to find the fourth one you posted on the web, although I know them both from books (the London "Bacchanal" and the "Bathers"). And I wasn't familiar at all with the first two out of the four Dosssos you posted, even though I have four books from the library on Dosso. Do you have links with information about these artworks,
I didn't look with much attention. You triggered me with your Bacchus argument to look for art around Alfonso, I just found Bacchus and drinking and took it. It seems obvious, that Alfonso had "something" with Bacchus. I would assume, that French guests loved alcohol, and that Alfonso had opportunity to study the art of drinking. And the time runs parallel to the many festivities in Rome paid by pope Leo. Leo spend the money of 3 popes: that, what the earlier pope has spared, his own, and he took money of his follower ... that's a common comment. The general European focus turned away from Italy and went away to Spain. And the richest banker became the Fugger and not the Medici. And Rome was sacked.
But I don't know much about the later time of Alfonso - for the current moment. I more focused on the early reign.

http://www.roberto-crosio.net/DIDATTICA ... RIANNA.htm
https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:A ... EiJd9ZgY80

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... si_018.jpg and
http://www.wikigallery.org/paintings/38 ... nting1.jpg ?
If Leonardo's "John the Baptist" and the other painting taken from it are 1510-1515, then neither is the "Bacchus" that Alfonso wanted to buy in 1505. Unfortunately the dating of these works is guesswork. I don't know of any other painting that Alfonso could be referring to; all I know is the drawing that I posted, which has similar fabric to the drawing assumed to be of his sister Isabella.

I still would like to see the wording of Alfonso's letter and the reply.
I think, that it's quite possible, that Leonardo's John the Baptist was taken for Bacchus. The deciding point is, that Alfonso addressed something as Bacchus and showed an interest in it. Nonetheless I still think, that the battle river Taro gave the first impulse for words of the Taro-etc. character. But this actual word choice might have associated other meanings, for instance something with Bacchus.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tharochus Bacchus est

#25
mikeh wrote: 1. "Tharopes" in Diodorus Siculus

To start with, here is a modern translation of the passage in Diodorus, from vol. 3, p. 65 of his Library of History (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/R ... s/3E*.html, also in Italian). I put the name in bold:
...Among those who were punished by him, the most renowned, they say, were Pentheus among the Greeks, Myrrhanus the king of the Indians, and Lycurgus among the Thracians. For the myth relates that when Dionysus was on the point of leading his force over from Asia into Europe, he concluded a treaty of friendship with Lycurgus, who was king of that part of Thrace which lies upon the Hellespont. Now when he had led the first of the Bacchantes over into a friendly land, as he thought, Lycurgus issued orders to his soldiers to fall upon them by night and to slay both Dionysus and all the Maenads, and Dionysus, learning of the plot from a man of the country who was called Charops, was struck with dismay, because his army was on the other side of the Hellespont and only a mere handful of his friends had crossed over with him. 5 Consequently he sailed across secretly to his army, and then Lycurgus, they say, falling upon the Maenads in the city known as Nysium, slew them all, but Dionysus, bringing his forces over, conquered the Thracians in a battle, and taking Lycurgus alive put out his eyes and inflicted upon him every kind of outrage, and then crucified him. Thereupon, out of gratitude to Charops for the aid the man had rendered him, Dionysus made over to him the kingdom of the Thracians and instructed him in the secret rites connected with the initiations; and Oeagrus, p301 the son of Charops, then took over both the kingdom and the initiatory rites which were handed down in the mysteries, the rites which afterwards Orpheus, the son of Oeagrus, who was the superior of all men in natural gifts and education, learned from his father; Orpheus also made many changes in the practices and for that reason the rites which had been established by Dionysus were also called "Orphic."
In modern Greek editions, the word "Charops" is spelled "Charopos": chi alpha rho omicron pi omicron sigma; also "Charopi" in a different case. But in an edition accessible to me, Vogel 1888, reprinted 1964, p. 374. Vogel gives a variant: the same, but with a theta at the beginning, hence "Tharopos." The source for this variant is given as "II". No doubt he identifies this "II" in his Introduction, but this Introduction is in Latin, and my Latin is insufficient to say what "II" is. It is online at http://books.google.com/books?id=-mARAA ... &q&f=false.
Vogel uses "II" to mean "secondary". His explanation on page xcvi -

"II = secundae classis libri i.e. omnes codices praeter ABD"
"II = of the second class of books, i.e. all the codices outside of ABD"

D is the oldest, from the 11th century. A and B are 15th century.

But what we really want to know is where "Tharoco" (Tharocus) comes from.

Note that it is not Johann August Ernesti who wrote those notes, but François L'Honoré (1651-1709), in his 1689 edition of Cicero -
http://books.google.fr/books?id=vThXAAA ... ae&f=false

(this was dedicated to the Dauphin of France (Louis, "Le Grand Dauphin", hence "In usum ... Delphini" - for the Dauphin's use, by which title (in usum Delphini) this edition became known)


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/cice ... re1689.jpg


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/cice ... detail.jpg

So we have to find out where L'Honoré found this form of the name.

(The 1830 edition is only of the Ernesti version of the text of Cicero. The notes are noted on the title page as "with notes and interpretation "in usum Delphini" [L'Honoré's 1689 edition]". You can see that in an edition of Ernesti's Cicero from 1810, with his own notes ("notas suas"), he has nothing to say on Sabazius (page 503):


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/cice ... le1810.jpg


http://www.rosscaldwell.com/images/cice ... ti1810.jpg

So unfortunately Andrea's intensive plea for Ernesti's character and authority against "Tharocus" being a mistake, is completely beside the point. He had nothing to do with it.)
Image

Re: Tharochus Bacchus est

#26
Thanks, Ross. I myself didn't base any of my argument on this supposed spelling by Ernesti, since I could find no confirmation for it; what was important for me was "Tharopes", for which I did find confirmation, in Pogio and then, somehow, in Vogel. Thanks for the explanation; it certainly doesn't pin down the manuscript much! As for "Tharochos" ("Tharoco", specifically), I will alert Andrea to your post and see what he has to say. Now I am wondering who François L'Honoré was and where he got that spelling.

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