Re: The Ur Tarot: the very beginning

22
mmfilesi wrote::)
This an argument ad hominem
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
I dont think is a strong argument :)
I think, this wasn't intended as an argument.
... hm ... but I would think, that I should recognize local hero strategies ...
... and Bologna has simply less early Trionfi documents than Ferrara, Milan, Florence ...

... :-) ... and if I count the early card producers of Bologna, then I've 3 Germans (which might be something like 50% from those, which we know of), and if I would really assume, that Tarot developed in Bologna, I would be near to conclude, that Tarot might be a German invention ... but I'm not really interested and I don't believe it, and I think, it's good, that Ferrara, Milan and Florence have more documents ... :-)
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Ur Tarot: the very beginning

23
Huck wrote:
Pen wrote: And to be honest, I no longer know who or what to believe.

http://www.letarot.it/Bolognese-Industr ... 8_eng.aspx

Pen
... :-) ... you mean this article? That's from Girolamo Zorli, a man from Bologna ... naturally he interprets the facts a little bit from a Bolognese perspective ... :-)
http://www.letarot.it/Girolamo-Zorli_pag_pg84_eng.aspx

Some Italians have a local preference ... and one should look at life with some humor.
I can understand why there might be differences in opinion re. location - more difficult to get to grips with are the discrepancies between your post (#9 on this thread) and Girolamo Zorli's essay re. dates for the earliest woodcuts and the cost and usage of the cards.

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: The Ur Tarot: the very beginning

24
Thanks for starting the thread Pen.

Just some quick historical notes, before discussing your methodological considerations (which I mostly agree with, btw).

The earliest reference to printed cards is from Palermo, 1422. The phraseology is "ad stampandum nayypis" - "for printing cards". A professor Henri Bresc found it and Dummett got notice of it, where he mentions it in 1980 (p. 31). Bresc is an authority on Sicilian history.

Here is the full notice from Dummett:
"No early playing cards known to have come from Naples, or from anywhere in southern Italy, have survived. However, we noted that playing cards were known in Sicily in the late fourteenth century, by at least 1422, they were not only being used, but made, there. Professor Antonino Giuffrida, of the Archivio di Stato in Palermo, has informed me that the Archivio there possesses three fifteenth-century notarised documents, discovered by Professor Bresc, referring to playing cards. The earliest is a contract, dated 31 August 1422, whereby one Petrus de Matrona, aged 16, engages with Petrus de Florito of Palermo to print, collate, colour and sell playing cards (ad stampandum nayypis, incollandum, colorandum et vendendum) in return for his board and lodging and a third of the profits. Next is a statement debt, dated 7 February 1455, for the price of two (wood) block for (printing) playing cards (due forme di nayibis). Finally there is an inventory of 1484, listing playing cards (carti di iocu and various items of equipment for printing them."

There is some confusion about Sagramoro's origin. In 1411, 1421 and 1422 there is a guy called "Jacopo Sagramoris da Bologna". He is a pittore, a painter. Franceschini considers him to be the same as "Jacopo Sagramoris di Bartolomeo da Soncino", who is mentioned only after 1422. Usually this is shortened to Jacopo Sagramoro da Soncino.

So it could be that Jacopo's father, Bartolomeo, is the one from Soncino, but that the family (or just Jacopo himself) emigrated to Bologna at some point.
Image

Re: The Ur Tarot: the very beginning

25
I can understand why there might be differences in opinion re. location - more difficult to get to grips with are the discrepancies between your post (#9 on this thread) and Girolamo Zorli's essay re. dates for the earliest woodcuts and the cost and usage of the cards.

Pen
hm ... I don't understand you. I wrote something about woodcut history in this thread, but not in post Nr. 9.

Girolamo in his text speaks of a conjecture ...
A second less documented conjecture moves from the assumption that the idea of ruff arrived immediately to intellectual and gambling Bologna – say 1410 or so. Local printers pioneered a local deck with a fifth order of trumps. Trump icons were taken from the iconographic and moral Bolognese trend of that time. Popularization pushed to standardization. Milanese students and conquerors took to Milan the idea of a deck structured for the ruff wit an added fifth order of trumps. Marziano da Tortona, the Milanese duke’s learned preceptor, made his court decks, often dedicated to celebrations and spiritual edification more than to the game. In other words, Marziano da Tortona might have worked on a popular accepted pack.
As already said: The assumptions about the distribution of woodcut technology in Europe vary between 1370 - 1430. That's a discussion with very different opinions ... So some researchers seem to have no problem to assume, that the playing card revolution in the 1370's was based on the use of woodcut. So - also - the unknown person, which made the conjecture, about which Girolamo speaks, has no problem to say "say 1410 or so", assuming further "local printers".

However ...
The first noted Nurremberg card producer in 1414 is a "Kartenmaler"... no indication, that he was a printer. Nurremberg had cards 1380, and the Hübsch article of 1850 (still not really accepted) has a Jonathan Kraysel from Nurremberg, who produces playing cards in Prague in 1354. Nurremberg was likely the biggest city for early playing card production (38 card producers mentioned during 15th century according Schreiber's list of 1938), with the "official earliest German paper mill in 1390" nearby.
http://trionfi.com/0/p/20/
The second Nurremberg playing card producer "1422 Michel Wyener (- 1447)" is suspected to have printed (... well, when precisely ?). Definitely we have a woodcut from Buxheim, 1423, already found by Heinecken in 18th century.

Image


Well, generally considered, if Nurremberg (likely one of the most modern cities in Germany with a definite relation to early paper industry and early playing card production) didn't know woodcuts till c. 1420, who then?

Spain had paper mills long before any other country, likely thanks to the advantage, that it naturally had Muslims, Jews and Christians living close together. Persia definitely produced block books in 13th century, but - it's said so - with a little different technology than it was used later in Germany and Netherlands. It took very long till the paper production technology spread, though it's also discussed, that paper mills (for instance in Germany) had been far earlier than the "officially version" of 1390.
http://trionfi.com/0/p/21/

Perhaps the business strategy, to keep technology mysteries hidden, played a larger role in the question, why it took so long, that paper production spread across Europe. A second factor might have been the plague of 1348-1350, which might have finished some early technology developments at various places. But it's well imaginable, that Spain had a longer time a technology advance in woodcut (and used it, possibly only at a smaller scale) around 1400 (as claimed recently by Spanish playing card research), which reached Venice, who kept it as a mystery, as indicated in the document of 1441 ...

In 1415 then we have a big, great event, the council of Constance. Persons of many countries meet for a longer time - the number of attending persons is occasionally given with 100.000 persons (surely not all the time, but possibly occasionally). Technological differences in the different countries naturally showed up. For the development of European music it's said, that the council changed a lot and formed a new creative impulse.

If music found a new direction, then also other things. The explosion of woodcut technology after the council might be another example of the importance of the council. Generally one has to suspect, that the one big plague of 1348-1350 and its various reappearances had reduced traffic and trade considerably ...

Well, take 100% population and reduce it to 2/3 of it (by the plague). Then everybody has more possession and there's enough property at every location, which demands local activity ... and not activity at "foreign ground" (as natural for traffic and trade in high populated regions). If traffic and trade were dangerous after the plague, there's further reason, why traffic and trade simply didn't take place. Traffic and trade might have broken down from 100% to something like 10-20% ... that's just my private rough calculation "of the not observable follow-up", not officially, just by counting the 10 fingers of my hand, naturally. I've no official numbers ... it's just an observation, that in historic research the plague and its consequences is often "not a really calculated topic".

In the moment of the council 1415 suddenly "traffic and trade" reached dimensions, which wasn't experienced long before, perhaps never since the plague of 1348-50.

So we have to calculate explosive effects - after the council, not before. Well, and woodcut developed.

*************

As Ross before noted, we have a sure woodcut / playing cards document in Palermo August 1422. It follows the Italian engagement of Alfonso of Aragon in Italy, who was made heir of Naples in 1420 and ...
Alfonso entered Naples in July 1421
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joan_II_of_Naples
Early Spanish playing card documents mostly appear in Aragon, not in Castile. Playing card printing in Palermo seems to refer to technology import from Spain.

Actually it would be nice, if these woodcut playing cards in Spain c. 1400 would be better documented.

*************

Generally it's said, that Northern Italy after the break down of Milan after 1402 (death of Giangaleazzo) regained splendid economical conditions till 1425, as long Milan and Venice stayed in productive cooperation with each other. But then they decided to have war and the wars kept going on till 1454 (with some peace periods between the wars). This perhaps explains, why the woodcut revolution (inclusive copperplate engraving and letter type printing) didn't take place in Italy, but in Germany and the Netherlands (mainly part of Burgundy at this time).

Ferrara / Florence had Imperatori cards in 1423 (VIII cards), in Germany the game of Karnöffel (= Keyserspiel and Keyserspiel is German name of Imperatori) is first noted in 1426 in Nördlingen, later described with some detail c. 1450 by Mysner (somehow with 7-8 special cards, described as Pope, Devil, Emperor, Karnöffel and with an unclear number of "holy teachers" (likely 4) ... with some differences to later descriptions of the game.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=416&p=5182&hilit=mysner#p5182

A game with "somehow 8 trumps" at Ober and Unter position is noted by Master Ingold in 1432.
http://trionfi.com/0/mi/00/

The Michelino deck (produced till 1425) uses in a similar way court cards (16 gods) as trumps beside the 4 kings (which are not trumps), following in its structure a deck, which was already described by Johannes of Rheinfelden 1377 with 60 cards totally. A still living German card game (Schafkopf, first known with this name in c. 1700) uses the Ober and Unter position still as "predefined trumps". It's versions are mainly played in Bavaria and the Riesengebirge (borders of the older Bohemia).
Bohemia was central for the German Empire below Charles IV. (1348-1378) ... in the time, when the playing card revolution of the 1370's was prepared. Hübsch (overlooked and not accepted) reported in 1850 about playing cards in Bohemia since 1340.
http://trionfi.com/0/p/95
From the context it seems relatively plausible, that the 60 cards deck described by Johannes of Rheinfelden 1377 ...
http://trionfi.com/0/p/10/
... with presented professions at each number card had been a court deck for exclusive players from Bohemia, especially as another game with professions ...

Image


... was made at the Bohemian court in c. 1455 later.

Giangaleazzo Visconti (Milan) in 1395 bought the duke title from German/Roman King Wenzel in Prague (Bohemia) ... a complex diplomatic mission with big Milanese delegations in Prague and very bad consequences for Wenzel on highest political level, cause Wenzel lost his throne about it (abdicated 1400). From Filippo Maria Visconti (* 1392), later the commissioner of the Michelino deck, it is known, that he had a favor for playing cards in his childhood .. likely he got, 3 years old in 1395, a version of the Bohemian court deck with 60 cards.

**********

The double appearance of Imperatori and Keyserspiel/Karnöffel in Italy and Germany is likely best explained, that Karnöffel as card playing idea appeared during the council 1415 and was played then.

The first 7 cards of the Tarot row have some strong similarity to the 7-8 Karnöffel-trumps, however, one has to understand, that the German Karnöffel devil is presented in the Italian card Love. This somehow astonishing phenomenon is best understood, if one reads the text of Master Ingold and how he presents his card playing devils.

**********

Surely some German card makers might have brought some German playing ideas to Bologna ... Karnoffel or games similar to Karnöffel. But Ferrara bought their Imperatori cards in Florence, not in Bologna.
The creativity with Karnöffel versions might have stimulated Trionfi card versions ... just as an "expanded" Imperatori or Karnöffel game. But we have no document, which attests the presence of 22 special cards. Instead the numbers "14" or "16" show up in the early time, not "22".

The earliest known court deck (for the "expensive" market) uses "professions" and professions show up in chess iconography with the work of Jacob de Cessolis (c. 1300). The 8 pawns were then interpreted as "individual professions", likely inpired by Persian/Mongolic chess versions, which used specified pawns.
The Bohemian court game observed by Johannes of Rheinfelden in 1377 is just an adaptation of this idea. The Michelino deck is just an adaption of the Bohemian court deck. The later Trionfi versions were an adaptation of the Michelino deck (and also of Karnöffel/Imperatori versions, which were expanded). The later Tarot and Minchiate versions were adaptations, collecting their content from earlier Trionfi card experiments and possibly some lot book input.

Greek/Roman Gods ...
... well, this are not a German idea. Evrart da Conty wrote... likely a long time, somehow finished 1398 ... a monster work with much text, nearly an encyclopedia, in which he interpreted an anonymous chess poem. As material he used 16 Roman/Greek gods and 32 allegorical figures, from which 16 presented the male soul and the 16 other the female soul. Finally the hero plays with his 16 pieces against a female player with her 16 figures, and rather easily loses the game. Well, this model alone uses 48 figures, the 32 mostly taken from the then rather popular Roman de la rose. In 1402 a scandal happened, when Christine de Pizan protested enduring against the male dominance in the Roman de la rose .. partly these protests were also directed against the "Echecs amoureux".

Image


Christine de Pizan was sponsored by Valentina Visconti, sister of Filippo Maria Visconti, commissioner of the Michelino deck. Surely Filippo Maria knew about this work later, though in 1402 he was only 10 years old.

So the Michelino deck is a mix of German / French / Bohemian influences ... and a few other influences, which Filippo Maria collected here and there. He focused Daphne ... likely he took this from Petrarca. He used the scheme of the 12 Olympian gods ... likely he was aware of the Manilius manuscript, which was found by Poggio during the council of Constance. And he used birds as suits ... likely with intentions of his personal family heraldic.

Well, a nice game. ... :-) ... But surely one can state, that none of the later Trionfi or Tarot cards versions or even Minchiate versions reached the complexity of Evrart da Conty's attempt about chess ...

Image


Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Ur Tarot: the very beginning

26
hi Pen,

my arguments were about the placement of the Ur-Tarot-problem in time.
Now I take a look at your proposal:
A Procession of Earthly, Supernatural and Celestial Power and the Final Triumph of Divinity

....

8. Strength: conquers War
9. Fortune: good fortune can conquer Strength.

10. Traitor: powerful because he works undercover against man’s normal instincts to stay true to his family/tribe, which on a larger scale becomes his country. No one expects this sort of undercover deceit, which is why it’s difficult to detect and therefore more powerful than Strength or the Fortunes of War.
11. Justice: conquers the Traitor. Another pair.

12. Temperance: implies mercy.
13. Death: conquers all that comes before.

14. Devil: First supernatural entity. Conquers Death by condemning the sinner to burn in Hell.
15. Time: Father Time, second supernatural entity. Time will eventually conquer the Devil. (Two supernatural entities.)

...
You've - with your pairing idea - no problem with the begin and end of the row. So I left this part away. According this your new sorting idea of the cards you changed all positions of the Marseille Tarot - only Death keeps its position.

Years ago we had a Ur-Tarot-discussion, I think 2004. The research was surely at another state as today. Maybe some considerations in the presented article are not up-to-date anymore. But anyway, it saw a similar problem as you, but got a different solution.

http://trionfi.com/0/g/61/
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Ur Tarot: the very beginning

28
mmfilesi wrote:Hi Huck.

a) Great post the last post. Thanks for the development. :)

b) I dont understand well this:

16 Turm
17 Star
18 Moon
19 Sun

we are agree the 16.tower is the hell?
... :-) No, it's a light ... Sagitta, lightning.
Sagitta-Star-Moon-Sun ... 4 lights
but sorry, the web designer by error used a German expression Turm = Tower

And that's all Jupiter ... :-)

Jupiter description for the Michelino deck (Where Jupiter is highest card, in other words Nr. 16:
JOVE

Jove, who was the King of Athens while antiquity was still rough and wild. For the race of man, there was yet no justice, and man followed savage rites; Jupiter established the first laws. And he instituted matrimony, and banished the abominable feasts on human flesh, and forbade them by strict rigour. He induced the first society and friendship, and taught to men what is most necessary.
He commanded the first temples and altars to the immortal gods to be built, and to venerate them with the highest dignity. And the men asked the gods anything of the good that they desired. And if he deemed it worthy he would himself fulfil what they had prayed for. The inventor of wars, he overcame the Giants, mockers of the gods, and afflicted them with onerous punishment. Therefore on account of his outstanding virtue, the former age venerated him, and he was esteemed by the people as a god. And he was called Good Jove, and temples were dedicated to him, to the perpetual memory of his glory. Thus holding the divine honour, his name was received by posterity in the highest veneration. He is seated on a starry throne, with regal emblems.
Four stars ...
...appearing above, attend him, while by the right part a splendour of right reason of the conduct of humanity, in which customs he instructed ingnorant men, the first leaders of the state[= 1st light = likely SUN]. At the left that light by which he published the inviolable laws and he decreed the society which would be cherished by humankind, being guarded by equality[= 2nd light = MOON]. On the lower right side appears a burning star like Mars, which he lets loose frightfully if scorned, but especially so that the republic may be preserved[= 3rd light= STAR]. How the illustrious example of Jupiter shines for men! Who for the sake of sacred worship happily defeated the blaspheming Giants by war. To the left, a thunderbolt, which at one time he often used to protect his sacred laws against so many lustful and violent men. [= 4th light = LIGTHNING]
http://trionfi.com/martiano-da-tortona- ... -16-heroum
Translation by Ross

One has to imagine that a little bit like this ...

Image


... well, the animals has to be lights and and naturally the fgure is sitting on a throne as usual ...

Image


... more like a real throne, but anyway, I think, you get the idea
Last edited by Huck on 08 Apr 2011, 19:34, edited 3 times in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Ur Tarot: the very beginning

29
Ross, many thanks for the historical notes.

Huck, sorry about the #9 error - it was your second long post, the one at the top of page 2 that I was referring to. Thanks for your latest posts also.

Much info to come to grips with here. I will read up the trionfi link too.

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: The Ur Tarot: the very beginning

30
Thanks Huck.

... :-? ... Well I am not sure exist a conceptual or iconographic continuity between Michelino and other decks.

About the Tower we have this dates

1). Names:

1. c. 1500. North Italian: Sermón Steele: La sagitta
2. 1522, Roma: Pietro Aretino. Pasquinate sopra il Conclave del 1521: Casa
3. 1534, Venezia: Troilo Pomeran. Triomphi de Pomeran da...: Foco
4. 1538, Milano: Andrea Alciati. De ludis nostri temporis (Parergon Iuris): Fulmine (fulmine)
5. 1525 / 40, Pavia: Giambattista Susio: il Fuoco
6. 1527, Venezia: Teofilo Folengo: 4. fuoco
7. 1543, Venezia: Aretino, Pietro: la casa di Plutone
8. c. 1530 / 1560, Ferrara: Anonymus. Trionphi de Tarocchi appropriati: la Casa del Diavolo
9. 1559, Roma: Paolo Giovio (¿?): la casa del danato
10. c. 1550, Venezia: Lollio et Imperiali: Inferno
11. 1561, Venezia: Alessandro Citolini. La tipocosmia: Il Fuoco
c. 1565?, Monte Regale: Francesco Piscina: Fuoco
c. 1560?: Discorso perchè fosse trovato il giuoco et particolarmente quello del Tarocco: Is not clear. Seem the Hell.
1585, Venezia: Tommaso Garzoni. La Piazza universale: Il Fuoco.

In summary, we have three types of names:

Lightning and arrows: (sagitta, fulmine)
Hell: la casa del danato, inferno, la casa di Plutone...
Fire: Il Fuoco

The fire is closely related with the Hell ("the fire and the worm" is a synonym for hell).

Lightning (and its allegory: the arrow) corresponds to the Wrath of God. That is, to Hell. See for example, the vox flagellum of God in Cesare Ripa (I only have in spanish, sorry), :

«Un hombre vestido de color rojo que en la mano derecha tiene una fusta y en la izquierda un rayo […]. En color rojo significa ira y venganza; la fusta es la penitencia para los hombres más dignos de perdón, para corregirles y que permanezcan por el buen camino, según el dicho: Quos amo, arguo e castigo [“yo castigo y reprendo a los que amo”, una expresión del Apocalipsis (19, 3) que equivaldría a la locución “quien te quiere, te hará llorar”]. El rayo es signo del castigo de aquellos que, obstinadamente, perseveran en el pecado y creyéndose al final de la vida, suplican sin esfuerzo el perdón de Dios [...]».
ripa.jpg ripa.jpg Viewed 12134 times 18.38 KiB
Or S. Brandt. Narrship, chapter 83:
brandt.jpg brandt.jpg Viewed 12134 times 24.03 KiB
2) Decks

a) Exists two decks where the tower es clear the Hell:

Catelin Geofrey, with Orpheo and Euridice, and Paris with the Leviathan (this monster is a common allegory in the midle age to refer the hell).
cathelin_torre.jpg cathelin_torre.jpg Viewed 12134 times 38.59 KiB
b) In the minchiate there is a very interesting concept: the expulsion from Paradise (cf. Massaccio). That is, the pain of loss. (I dont know how to say it in English: la pena de daño).
massaccio.jpg massaccio.jpg Viewed 12134 times 29.63 KiB
c) Then exists the common Babel towers. We can understand it as the flagellum of God, that is, the Hell.

d) One exception is the Cary Sheet and the Jacques Vieville, where is painting the punishment (or test) to Job. This is a kind of iconography peculiar that needs much research.

-----------------

If the Tower is the hell, I think this card doesn't make a conceptual whole with the three stars, but with the Devil.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)
cron