EUGIM wrote: 4-Then we have as a fact that frenchmen reworked entirely the deck,add titles and numbers.
The iconography thus changed totally.

AH! I think this is where we disagree! I think the French changed the Iconography probably very little. I think we would have recognized it as Tarot de Marseille when it came into France from Italy (supposing).

I think the French added Titles and Numbers, and *perhaps* made some small changes, but that basically the Tarot de Marseille pattern looked in 1499 pretty similar to what it did by the time of Noblet.

In other words... I not only think that "tarot" came from Italy to France, but that the Tarot de Marseille pattern came from Italy to France as well (for which I have started another topic a little bit ago, but whatever).

Just as we can recognize the Star and the Moon from the Cary Sheet, I suspect we would have recognized most of the cards.

It's an interesting question though. When did the Hermit go from Time to Hermit/Hourglass to Lantern (assuming)?

Perhaps I'm contradicting myself from recent comments about Temperance's wings, but I suppose I see that as an "evolution" rather than a redesign.

Hello R.A.H. !!!
1-Yes of course but on an Italian Tarocchi point of view of course in many ways transferred to Marseilles pattern.
LE MAT or LE FOL is a depiction of insane anyway...
2-But also insanity was and is many times a depiction of Religion madness,or best mystic accesis...
3-If you mean that LE MAT is a good for nothing well my firend,you re right after all.
How the ordinary people as me called hat "lost persons" that "touch" the Divine world ?
And how we act then ? // Well we just shut them at a mental Hospital ...
As Van Gogh one of many of many.

eugim ;)

Nice topic Robert ...
I think that your best bon ami Vieville could answer the question ...
1- XI card : A lantern
2- XVII card : An hourglass

eugim ;)

With regard to LE BATELEVR and what is suppose he doing I made my opinion related with some cards as follow.


I think must be say,I feel that the whole sequence of LE MAT + the rest 21 cards of Tarot of Marseilles talks about an Alchemical Work inside Us and on the Universe (As the body of God) at Once I mean at the same time.
Both are returning to the One Spirit,the Central Fire.
But no less is the work do by LE BATELEVR than for example the card XIIII after XIII work and XVII after XVI Rubedo stage of the Opus Alchemicum.
For me the first mixing looking for harmonize our duality and XVII returning the energy transmutated to the common source of the Water of Life.
The Soul,our Soul is the agent who link Spirit and Matter and the purpose for me is become Matter more conscious.
So the whole Universe is returning to the Divine Intelligence who created it.
But which Matter?.
The matter of our body,the matter of our emotions and the matter of our thoughts.All are just only matter and that s why we can not reach yet the Divine.mind.
They are the future body of the Soul when it could be ready to be fill with the fire of the Spirit.
For ours future body and for the universe also.
It s stage is impossible before this work is done,because our matter (physic,emotional and mental) will be surely disintegrated by the electricity (I mean literally) of the Spirit.
So that s for me the patience and gradual work of ours Soul.
Here I think we have a connection with XII card and the topic of Gravitation.
After many too many distillations of our inner matter,our body matter become more and more light in a very real sense so not tied to the Earth.
That s drives us to levitation.
As H. P. Blavatsky said " Spirit is Matter in its lowest stage and Matter is Spirit in its highest ".
That s for me the Alchemic Work in Us and in the Universe at Once.
The encounter between Matter and Spirit with the Soul (Ours or the Anima Mundi on a macrocosmic level) as the Alchemist agent,ends in Conscience as a result.
Now I think on a link between VIII and VIIII.
The first with her work of weigh our matter and determine if we are ready so able,for meet VIIII as an intercessory (and teacher also) with our Soul.
If the Alchemic work is well done then we will reach XII card.

eugim

EUGIM wrote:With regard to LE BATELEVR and what is suppose he doing I made my opinion related with some cards as follow.


I think must be say,I feel that the whole sequence of LE MAT + the rest 21 cards of Tarot of Marseilles talks about an Alchemical Work inside Us and on the Universe (As the body of God) at Once I mean at the same time.
Both are returning to the One Spirit,the Central Fire.
But no less is the work do by LE BATELEVR than for example the card XIIII after XIII work and XVII after XVI Rubedo stage of the Opus Alchemicum.
For me the first mixing looking for harmonize our duality and XVII returning the energy transmutated to the common source of the Water of Life.
The Soul,our Soul is the agent who link Spirit and Matter and the purpose for me is become Matter more conscious.
So the whole Universe is returning to the Divine Intelligence who created it.
But which Matter?.
The matter of our body,the matter of our emotions and the matter of our thoughts.All are just only matter and that s why we can not reach yet the Divine.mind.
They are the future body of the Soul when it could be ready to be fill with the fire of the Spirit.
For ours future body and for the universe also.
It s stage is impossible before this work is done,because our matter (physic,emotional and mental) will be surely disintegrated by the electricity (I mean literally) of the Spirit.
So that s for me the patience and gradual work of ours Soul.
Here I think we have a connection with XII card and the topic of Gravitation.
After many too many distillations of our inner matter,our body matter become more and more light in a very real sense so not tied to the Earth.
That s drives us to levitation.
As H. P. Blavatsky said " Spirit is Matter in its lowest stage and Matter is Spirit in its highest ".
That s for me the Alchemic Work in Us and in the Universe at Once.
The encounter between Matter and Spirit with the Soul (Ours or the Anima Mundi on a macrocosmic level) as the Alchemist agent,ends in Conscience as a result.
Now I think on a link between VIII and VIIII.
The first with her work of weigh our matter and determine if we are ready so able,for meet VIIII as an intercessory (and teacher also) with our Soul.
If the Alchemic work is well done then we will reach XII card.

eugim

Hi eugim,

Have you read Robert Place's book on Tarot History? He talks a lot about Neo-Platonism, I think you'd find a lot in common!

http://www.amazon.com/Tarot-History-Sym ... 1585423491

Many thanks Robert.
I heard about him but I did n t read anythimg yet.

My best, ;)

-Sorry please is Roubert !

Hi Robert,

In reference to LL Bateleur's Wand you wrote:

“Steve has found plenty of literary reason why it *might* be a play on words; but I've never seen another graphic of the Bateleur from that or any other period with a penis in his hand. Why not? Because it is ridiculous.”

I want to throw out an idea here: We all know that cardmakers were taxed, and I seem to recall reading (though I can't seem to find the reference on this forum) that at one time, cardmakers were forced to work in specific places set aside for that purpose. Maybe the cardmaker, Jean Noblet, was visually voicing his objection to particularly odious new restrictions he was being forced to work under. Perhaps he was saying, in effect, “I am the craftsman, LL Bateleur, and your regulations have cut off my fingers, my ability to make a living; you have in effect made me impotent (severed penis)”.

Maybe this visual statement of rebellion made this deck a special “keeper,” and that might be why it was one of the few to survive through the centuries. Just a thought. —Marcei

PS. Somehow I forgot to thank you for your earlier response in relation to Le Mat's spoon. You attached some great visual references. Thanks!

I believe that it is an impression problem and not a penis, if we compared the wand with the one of Vieville we see that what supposes the head of the penis they can be the adornments of an incomplete wand...

Cheers!

Hi Lamort, great to hear from you.

You could, of course, be right. If, however, it were an impression problem, I would expect that the edges of the image that actually printed would be less controlled. I don't see that here. The image does not simply drop out in the way I would expect it to if the plate had been damaged due to something having fallen onto it creating a depression that failed to make contact with the paper. No, it looks too careful—too intentional. In addition to this, the hand is actually backwards (the thumb on the outside). The hand is NOT reversed in the Heri, although I realize it is in the Vieville. I have puzzled over the Vieville hand and wondered if this was a way some card makers chose to indicate the “backhanded” operations of someone who is being deceptive. Whatever the case, I don't think it an accident; these card makers were highly skilled and took too much pride in their work not to have corrected an unintentional mistake. Also, thumbs shown elsewhere appear on the correct side of the hand. —Marcei