Re: Prudence theological - SOS

11
Perfect, Lorredan and Robert, thanks, but my problem its other (Sooner or later, I need go to study the English language).

Ok, I try again :D

1. In the minchiate we have

16 o la Speranza || <- Hope, Teological
17 o la Prudenza || <- Prudence, Cardinal :-o
18 o la Fede || <- Faith, Teological
19 o la Carità || <- Charity, Teological

2. Now I need Marcos 2...

Marcos 1: Hey, see Marcos 1. The Prudence is between the theological.

Marcos 2: Oh! Its true... Strange. Its not after or before this tree virtues. Seem that someone (the inventor of the minchiate) consider the Prudence as a theological virtue.

Marcos 1: :-? ... Its strange, but maybe we can explore this posibility. Do you know any text of century XV where said the Prudence is a theological virtue?

Marcos 2: No, sorry, friend. :-??

Marcos 1: OK. No worry. Maybe the friends of tarothistory know some text about it. I go to the forum, see you later.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

12
mmfilesi wrote:Perfect, Lorredan and Robert, thanks, but my problem its other (Sooner or later, I need go to study the English language).

Ok, I try again :D

1. In the minchiate we have

16 o la Speranza || <- Hope, Teological
17 o la Prudenza || <- Prudence, Cardinal :-o
18 o la Fede || <- Faith, Teological
19 o la Carità || <- Charity, Teological

2. Now I need Marcos 2...

Marcos 1: Hey, see Marcos 1. The Prudence is between the theological.

Marcos 2: Oh! Its true... Strange. Its not after or before this tree virtues. Seem that someone (the inventor of the minchiate) consider the Prudence as a theological virtue.

Marcos 1: :-? ... Its strange, but maybe we can explore this posibility. Do you know any text of century XV where said the Prudence is a theological virtue?

Marcos 2: No, sorry, friend. :-??

Marcos 1: OK. No worry. Maybe the friends of tarothistory know some text about it. I go to the forum, see you later.
Ah! I see. I didn't realise it was between theological virtues. When the creator added the theological virtues in with the elements and star signs, he/she put prudence between hope and faith? That does seem odd, I would have thought he/she would have put it first, or even last, and not let the group of 3 theological ones be interrupted.

Nevertheless, I don't think it is because the creator thought that Prudence was a theological virtue, I suspect it was simple because he thought it belonged and was missing and so added it.

At the very least, he might not have known about the division between cardinal and theological, and simply said "Oh, only three virtues in tarot!? There should be 7! I will add in the missing 4! We know that the SEVEN was also considered a group, and so he was simply adding the missing four without thinking of the further division of theological and cardinal.

That's my guess.

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

14
I do not know how to tell you this any clearer....so here is a quote
In Christianity, the theological virtues are faith, hope and charity or love/agape, a list which comes from 1 Corinthians 13:13 (νυνι δε μενει πιστις ελπις αγαπη τα τρια ταυτα μειζων δε τουτων η αγαπη pistis, elpis, agape). These are said to perfect one's love of God and Man and therefore to harmonize and partake of prudence.
See if you have Faith Hope and Love you are including Prudence- so it is where it should be......
(in the Minchiate :-* ) There have always been Christian argument where Prudence lies, is Wisdom(Sophia) a gift from God or is it practical reasoning (phronesis) ? So The person who decided the sequence put it with the theological Virtues, as it is seen as Wisdom from God- who made Solomon wise? God or Solomon? Or was Solomon wise because he partakes of Prudence when using Faith Hope and Love? So which way you look at it It can be theological or Cardinal. The Minchiate man thought it Sophia- wisdom- therefore theological.

~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

15
well, let's go to the origin of your question ...
... actually you don't know, why the Minchiate has 16-17-18-19 filled with 3 theological virtues and Prudentia, and you assume or will research, if there had been a philosophical text before about Prudenti.

I've no fun to search your philosophical text. First you should look, where the problem starts.

Image


That's card 16 Hope, and there we have crown. Hope already earlier had some iconographical relation to star, ... for instance here:

Image


... there's a light (star) shining in from one of the corners.

Further observation: the Minchiate is ordered in the following way:

1-15 ... a sort of "begin of older Trionfi"
16-35 ... a special Florentine input, 20 cards, which changes the "form of older Trionfi" to Minchiate
36-40 ... a sort of "end of older Trionfi", unnumbered

16 Hope is at the begin of the Florentine input, a position, which is usually filled by 16 Star (older Tarot). The star itself is moved by the operation to position 36.

Image


A man with a crown and a star at the top. So, there's twice a crown, at somehow related positions. Now, we look for the crown.

Image


A man is crowned at the love card at position 5. The position 5 mirrors position 36, cause "5+36 = 41". The cards 1-5 and 36-40 have special function in the versicole system (this are part of the Minchiate rules). So the first 5 cards (papi) lead to a ceremonial crowning, and the last 5 cards (aries) open with a man with a crown on a journey.

Further we have 5 other crowns at ...

Position 2 as part of the papi
Position 3 as part of the papi
Position 4 as part of the papi
-----------
Position 39 as part of the aries
Position 40 as part of the aries

... from which I show only the last two cards:

Image


Image


(if you wish more details:
http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks07/d05113/d05115.htm )

... from which the last shows a Medici crown and Medici heraldic. I think, this deck was made 1725, and in the year 1724 we had a new Medici ruler, usually rather drunken.

Image


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gian_Gasto ... of_Tuscany

As there was a real crowning in 1724, possibly the crown details in this deck are not in original version of Minchiate ... anyway, we see, that specific games rules details could influence the iconography.

---------

So back to your problem:

Why Prudentia in the group of the theological virtue?

16 - 35 are 20 positions
-------------
12 zodiac signs
4 elements
3 theological virtues
-------------------------
19 positions, one was missing

Well they wanted 20, cause there are ...

2 sets with 10 cards (suit-numbers) are going from 1-10 ; totally 20
2 sets with 10 cards (suit-numbers) are going from 10-1 ; totally 20

... and they wanted, that these structure was mirrored in the trumps. For some ideological reasons they couldn't
chose the "perhaps normal" way

20 (1+20) + 20 (21-40)

or something like

10 (1-10 ... begin old Trionfi) + 20 (11-30 .. new input) + 10 (31-40 ... end old trionfi)

... but the chosen alternative is simple and elegant enough to be recognized.

So there were 19 elements and they did need a 20th ... the choice was Prudentia.
Which likely means, that a book, that describes a philosophical reason doesn't exist. The reason is likely more in the chosen system.
And 16 Hope likely explains by the similarity of this motive to the Star (No. 36).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

16
Huck wrote:
Well they wanted 20, cause there are ...

2 sets with 10 cards (suit-numbers) are going from 1-10 ; totally 20
2 sets with 10 cards (suit-numbers) are going from 10-1 ; totally 20

... and they wanted, that these structure was mirrored in the trumps. For some ideological reasons they couldn't
chose the "perhaps normal" way

20 (1+20) + 20 (21-40)

or something like

10 (1-10 ... begin old Trionfi) + 20 (11-30 .. new input) + 10 (31-40 ... end old trionfi)

... but the chosen alternative is simple and elegant enough to be recognized.

So there were 19 elements and they did need a 20th ... the choice was Prudentia.
Hmmmm... I'm not so sure that there was a desire for 20. If the focus was on the number, then surely they could have chosen two sets of ten. But no, they chose a set of twelve, a set of four, a set of three, and an additional card.

Why not choose two groups of ten, as shown in the Mantegna groupings (which of course, are not cards, but sets).

Rather, I think the desire was to expand the standard set with similar themes. In this case, the effort was to complete the virtues by adding the "missing" four, and then add elements and star signs as appropriate for a game which already had Star, Moon and Sun, as well as World and Judgement... this was an expansion on familiar themes, rather than a desire to add "twenty" for a particular reason. If twenty had been important, then two groups of ten would have been the obvious solution.

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

17
They desired groups of 20, as this is the structure we find by analysis.

Group 1-15 and group 36-40 = 20 elements (old Trionfi themes)
Group group 16-35 = 20 elements (Minchiate input group)

That's history ...
Why not choose two groups of ten, as shown in the Mantegna groupings (which of course, are not cards, but sets).
If you have a suggestion, please tell, according which criteria they had chosen another structure. Surely there are other substructures like 12 zodiac-signs, 4 elements, 5 papi or 5 aries, but where do you see the structure with 4x10 elements?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

18
Huck wrote:They desired groups of 20, as this is the structure we find by analysis.

Group 1-15 and group 36-40 = 20 elements (old Trionfi themes)
Group group 16-35 = 20 elements (Minchiate input group)

That's history ...
Why not choose two groups of ten, as shown in the Mantegna groupings (which of course, are not cards, but sets).
If you have a suggestion, please tell, according which criteria they had chosen another structure. Surely there are other substructures like 12 zodiac-signs, 4 elements, 5 papi or 5 aries, but where do you see the structure with 4x10 elements?
Nope. It's up to you to prove why they wanted 20. Just because the total adds up to 20 doesn't mean that that was the intention. Rather, the iconography seems to have been the intention, as it matches the rest of the standard group in theme.

Twenty is a nice number, (and it is very possible that that number seemed "right" for their aim, whatever that might have been), but there is absolutely no reason at all to assume they wanted "twenty" as a goal and chose accordingly.

Had twenty been the aim.. surely a group of twenty, five groups of four, four groups of five or two groups of ten would have been more appealing? Regardless, I see no reason whatsoever to assume that any specific number was important, rather, I see an expansion on a familiar theme. Prudence and the Theological virtues added to complete the group of virtues, the star signs and elements to enhance the last sequence of the standard tarot.

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

19
Thank you all for your interest. I love this forum %%- .

Well, try to summarize the problem and the research proposals.

a) In minchiate prudence is considered a theological virtue.
b) In tarot not exists the prudence (maybe in the Medici-Charles VI deck, but is an exception).

Research lines

1) The casual hypothesis

"Nevertheless, I don't think it is because the creator thought that Prudence was a theological virtue, I suspect it was simple because he thought it belonged and was missing and so added it".

+

"Perhaps they were blocked them together without any care or consideration for usual order or divisions - look at the sequence of the zodiac signs for instance - what scheme, if any, lies behind their ordering?"

2) The Sophia hypothesis

"There have always been Christian argument where Prudence lies, is Wisdom(Sophia) a gift from God or is it practical reasoning (phronesis) ? So The person who decided the sequence put it with the theological Virtues, as it is seen as Wisdom from God- who made Solomon wise? God or Solomon? Or was Solomon wise because he partakes of Prudence when using Faith Hope and Love? So which way you look at it It can be theological or Cardinal. The Minchiate man thought it Sophia- wisdom- therefore theological".

3) The matemathical hypothesis

"....So there were 19 elements and they did need a 20th ... the choice was Prudentia...."


4) The philosophical hypothesis

"Do you know any text of century XV where said the Prudence is a theological virtue?"

............

Well, maybe we need a "Virtues from Firenze Collection" :) . After dinner I begin it.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

20
Virtues from Firenze

1329: Andrea Pisano - Florence Baptistery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florence_Baptistery

A. Hope B. Faith C. Charity D. Humility
E. Fortitude F. Temperance G. Justice H. Prudence
220px-South_Doors_Florence_Baptistry_schema.jpg 220px-South_Doors_Florence_Baptistry_schema.jpg Viewed 12759 times 18.91 KiB

1469: Pollaiolo brothers + Boticelli - Tribunale della Mercanzia (now in Uficci)
http://www.mmfilesi.com/comentarios.php ... og=07golem

7 tables:

Hope, Faith, Charity, Fortitude, Temperance, Justice, Prudence

[...]
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)