Re: Prudence theological - SOS

21
robert wrote: Nope. It's up to you to prove why they wanted 20. Just because the total adds up to 20 doesn't mean that that was the intention. Rather, the iconography seems to have been the intention, as it matches the rest of the standard group in theme.

Twenty is a nice number, (and it is very possible that that number seemed "right" for their aim, whatever that might have been), but there is absolutely no reason at all to assume they wanted "twenty" as a goal and chose accordingly.

Had twenty been the aim.. surely a group of twenty, five groups of four, four groups of five or two groups of ten would have been more appealing? Regardless, I see no reason whatsoever to assume that any specific number was important, rather, I see an expansion on a familiar theme. Prudence and the Theological virtues added to complete the group of virtues, the star signs and elements to enhance the last sequence of the standard tarot.
hm ... I think, I described the idea already enough with
huck wrote:Further observation: the Minchiate is ordered in the following way:

1-15 ... a sort of "begin of older Trionfi"
16-35 ... a special Florentine input, 20 cards, which changes the "form of older Trionfi" to Minchiate
36-40 ... a sort of "end of older Trionfi", unnumbered
I assume, you know the Minchiate trumps. And I think, that you can understand the categories "older Trionfi" and "Florentine input, 20 cards, which changes the form of older Trionfi to Minchiate". So I don't know, which further
prove you desire.

Perhaps it helps, if you take a look at the article-series to ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=442
... Lorenzo Spirito and his "Il Libro delle Sorte"
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

22
...:-o...
Jacopo del sellaio, trionfo dell'eternità 1480-85.
very big in:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 480-85.JPG

The "three" virtues cardinals on left:

The "four" virtues theological on rigth:
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

23
I think it must be a language issue, or I'm just too tired, (I'm very exhausted from teacher training, and probably shouldn't be posting).

I was under the impression that you were suggesting that the creator wanted twenty, and then chose trumps to fill the number. That seems possible, but certainly not a given, and it seems to make the number more important than the content.

My point was that if the number was important, and especially if two tens were important, than the subjects could have been chosen to meet that number in more organised groups. Why not insert two groups of ten?

Instead, I suspect that expansion was the goal, that filling in the "missing" virtues was important, and that including the zodiac and elements fits with the rest of the iconography of the standard set.

I'll not labour the point, I think for the most part we are in agreement, we differ if you think the number was the goal.

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

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mmfilesi wrote:...:-o...
735px-Jacopo_del_sellaio,_trionfo_dell'eternità_1480-85.JPG
Jacopo del sellaio, trionfo dell'eternità 1480-85.
very big in:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 480-85.JPG

The "three" virtues cardinals on left:
t_cardinales.jpg

The "four" virtues theological on rigth:
t_teologales.jpg
Aren't the three theological virtues in the centre on the platform?
And then there are two cardinal virtues on either side of the platform?

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

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I believe that is Temperance on the right
Maybe, but, then, who is the third woman in the group of cardinals? :-?

And, why the Temperance? She have iconographic atributes I cant see because I need a big ~o) ?
....

Its not in Florence, but is made by Antonio Pollaiuolo
http://www.wga.hu/art/p/pollaiol/antoni ... xtus_4.jpg

POLLAIUOLO, Antonio del
Monument of Sixtus IV
1484-93
Bronze, length 445 cm
Basilica di San Pietro, Vatican

Two theologicals up

Fides || Charity or Hope

And then four cardinals:

Prudence || Templanze

Fortress || Justice
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Prudence theological - SOS

29
robert wrote: I'll not labour the point, I think for the most part we are in agreement, we differ if you think the number was the goal.
Of course the number of cards is of "more importance", cause "content is a variable", as we know for instance by the Boiardo Tarocchi poem and Sola Busca, which have the form of Tarot (4x14 + 22), but totally different content. Further we have Animal Tarock, Military Tarock, buildings Tarock and the Lego Tarot etc. and other modern schnickschnack ...

So "fulfilling a number-system" is a goal of a card maker, essentially. Naturally it's a possibility, that a card maker makes the decision to produce "outside of traditional form" with a concentration on content, for instance Baseball cards or maybe others collections like Emblem book pictures. No form orientation might happen, and especially for books it is mostly not a message, how many chapters the book has. But for playing cards it's mostly, that the form is a fixed pattern, and it is specific also for lot books. And this is not only used for the total number of cards, but also substructures like "14 + 14 + 14 + 14 + 21 + 1 = Tarot structure". In the case of Minchiate it's relatively "sure intention" to have ...

40 number cards + 40 trumps + 16 court cards + 1 Fool

... so actually the 40 trumps are determined by the structure of the number cards. In the content question they rather obviously not focus on the 4x10 structure, cause the use of the group of "12 zodiac-signs" ... this doesn't fit into a single 10-elements group. But a 20-20 partition (as described) seems to be used rather obviously, though in a curious manner.
Well, that's the freedom of art, they made it this way, one has to accept this.

If you study the "versicole"-system of Minchiate, you see, that they used also other funny number-tricks.
Huck
http://trionfi.com