Re: A strange belt

31
Well, there are Kastanien, which you can eat, so called Ess-Kastanien (but you have to heat them), and there are usual Kastanien, which aren't eaten by humans, but enjoy horses, deers etc.

The Ess-Kastanien were earlier only in Southern Europe, and still they grow big only there, I would assume. In Germany I know one tree (a lonesome standing, getting much light), whose fruits get some weight, but not as big as the Southern, which you can buy at the market place. In a forest I know also some trees, but the fruits mostly are not worth to collect them. The Cologne region is relative warm in comparison to other German regions, I would assume, that the trees are not successful everywhere ... though wiki states, "overall in Europe" (maybe, but possibly not everywhere with good results)
I would assume, that the Esskastanien trees are a late import.

The usual Kastanien are always some fun for the children. I never attempted to eat them, we were told, that they aren't for eating.

Eichen (oaks) are said to attract lightnings ... perhaps some cultures connect them to Jupiter. "Von Eichen sollst du weichen, Buchen sollst du suchen" ... says a proverb.

Now you think, that the bells were Kastanien originally? But bells make some sound, that's more funny. ... :-) ... maybe, poor fools used Kastanien instead, fools with good income maybe preferred bells.
Last edited by Huck on 21 Oct 2010, 06:43, edited 1 time in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: A strange belt

32
Well I don't know Huck- but not many bells have been found from the fashion in the 14/15th Century as it is presumed they were melted down, when the fashion changed. I would imagine bells would have been an expensive item for street theatre. The hats of the fool came from animal ears flopping down- now a jester hat.
I could not find the Italian quote about Horse Chestnuts and pigs and peasants.
I think- yes most likely the belt was fake bells until the Fool could afford more. What fools do you think were wealthy? The Fool of this deck looks fairly rude in his underwear- he is holding a belt- has lost his pants wears donkey ears. The Church in the 14th century made this ridiculous pronouncement about potatoes been the food of devil as they were grown underground-in many places this caused starvation- maybe those boys are not picking up stones but potatoes?
~Lorredan
My last suggestion is totally daft: Potatoes did not grow in Europe until the 16th century. So it is absolute crap that the church banned them in the 14th Century. Sometimes books have absolute rubbish in them. Sorry.
The evil food was turnips.Something went down in Germany about them. I have no idea what. Might have been the Great European famine early 14th Century.
Last edited by Lorredan on 21 Oct 2010, 07:40, edited 1 time in total.
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: A strange belt

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... :-) ... I think, you've spread there an error about potatoes. These were imported from the New World and were not a problem of 14th century, as far I'm informed. Still at begin of 18th century there were problems to inform people about the correct use. Some people did eat the upper parts, and became poisoned from it ... which caused a bad propaganda. Once the potato was established it became a success, cause bad years for corn were not naturally bad years for potatoes. So the occasional years of hunger were avoided, and potatoes became one of the big factors for the mystery of the European population increase ... and so Australia and New Zealand were detected and all this other forms of imperialism could take place.

I've read (as I only remember), that, when bells turned up, that they were not only used by fools, also the women loved them. Their use naturally developed from the courts. Then it is assumed, that women for some time "must" have had these bells to warn the men, that they were coming ... .-) ... The women worked on it and at begin of 15th century bells were for Fools (so I've read, no guarantee).

There were wealthy fools and there were fools admired for their wit. Gonella for instance in Ferrara, Kunz von der Rosen for Maximilian. Especially in Germany at the end of 15th century it is said, that the business of the Fools exploded. It was a professional genre, they had licenses.
Naturally there were also poor "Fools by nature" with mental sickness and deformations of the body etc.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: A strange belt

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Huck wrote: Morgana had two sisters ... so tells the story:

Morgana, Elaine and Morgause

El-aine ... El-eanore
Ooooh, now that's interesting. I am skeptical but it's interesting.

Whenever I think of Eleanore I think of Katharine Hepburn in the movie The Lion in Winter.

What was great about that was Eleanore coming down the river in her barge and the singing in the background "Eleonore Regina..." very haunting piece of choral music. Upon searching I have found it from the soundtrack of the movie. The song is called "Chinon/Eleanor's Arrival"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKjqrEMzlbA

Sorry Huck but you did mention Eleanor, Isn't that music fantastic?

p.s. for all we Latin lovers this is what they're singing:

Eleanore, Reginae Anglorum,
Salus et vita

English text :

To Eleanor, Queen of the English,
Health and life.

Re: A strange belt

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:-)
I hear only ...
"This video isn't available in your country" thanks to a king named "Sony Music Entertainment"

Yes, El-aine, mother of Galahad, who has a sort of Jesus-function inside the Arthur legends.

Elaine had been send to prison by her husband, and then her eldest son, Henry, attempted riots against his father (the husband Henry). It seems, that in this phase (1174 - 1183) the troubadours had been especially enthusiastic about this young king in spe. This went a little bit wrong, Henry called "Henry the young king", "the only one of his family who was popular in his own day", the "tournament hero", who had "celebrity status throughout western Europe" (all current wikipedia quotes), about which the troubador Bertran de Born, who knew him, said that he was "...the best king who ever took up a shield, the most daring and best of all tourneyers. From the time when Roland was alive, and even before, never was seen a knight so skilled, so warlike, whose fame resounded so around the world — even if Roland did come back, or if the world were searched as far as the River Nile and the setting sun" ... he died too early. "His death was the end of everything knightly", the chaplain said, "however, de Born was later highly critical of the Young King, and satirized him in several of his works" Wikipedia states. So there was enthusiasm with later returning sense for reality.

Yes, these poets ... an open purse of the nobility causes wonders and hero poems of considerable extensions.
"Manches sie auch besser wüßten,
wenn sie nicht dauernd fressen müßten".
(a mockery verse of the political left in the 1970's)

Henry the Young King had an open purse ... he had only one son, who died early.

His brother Geoffrey II, Duke of Brittany and Earl of Richmond, died a little later, likely at a tournament (1186).
His posthumous born son was called "Arthur", likely in expectation of a wonder child.
Arthur was declared heir (4 -5 years old) by king Richard Löwenherz on pressure of the side of the French king, during the crusade 1491.

Arthur had two earlier born sisters, El-eanor and M-aud ... there's this combination again "Morgana, Elaine and Morgause" ... but only two sisters. Maud died early.

Later, Arthur, proud 15-16 years old and too young for a series of heroic activities, claimed some of his rights, attempted to capture Eleanore, the grandmother ... King John Lackland captured him (1202) and Eleanore, his sister, later called "Fair Lady of Brittany". Young Eleanore was set in prison, Arthur was brought to Rouen in the custody of William de Braose, and disappeared (April 1203) ... grandma Eleanore (died 1204) was still living, now as a nun, a very late part of her career.

William of Broase got some favors, young Eleanore stayed in prison. In 1209 Maud de Braose, in youth Maud de St. Valéry, later also called Moll Wallbee, and Lady of La Haie (doesn't this sound a little like Morgan de la Fay ?), wife of William of Broarse, made in a conflict a word like "she would not deliver her children to a king who had murdered his own nephew", which took a bad end for her and her eldest son ... (the story is here ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maud_de_Braose

..) After dramatic flight to Ireland she and her son were captured, brought to the location, where young Eleanore still had her boring days in prison, and "starved to death".
The manner in which Maud and her son William met their deaths so outraged the English nobility that the Magna Carta which King John was forced to sign in 1215, contains clause 39 which reads as follows: No man shall be taken, imprisoned, outlawed, banished or in any way destroyed, nor will we proceed against or prosecute him, except by the lawful judgement of his peers or by the law of the land.
Well, ... so at least young Arthur had caused some rights for the people. And here Maud in another aspect:
Maud de Braose features in many Welsh folklore myths and legends. There is one legend which says that Maud built the castle of Hay-on-Wye single handed in one night, carrying the stones in her apron.She was also said to have been extremely tall and often donned armour while leading troops into battle.
A castle built in one night ... sounds a little bit like Morgan la Fay.

El-eanore, the Fair Maid of Brittany, had been prisoner since she was captured (1202) ...
Although according to the laws of primogeniture her claim was better, when John died in 1216 the English barons allowed the king's son, Henry, to succeed to the throne.

As the eldest daughter of Constance, Eleanor may have been recognized Duchess of Brittany after the death of her brother Arthur. But instead, the Breton barons (fearing King John's claims to rule Brittany in representation of Eleanor's rights) made her younger half-sister Alix duchess instead.

Eleanor died in 1241, still a prisoner at Corfe Castle, and was buried at Amesbury Abbey.


39 years prison ... they must have really feared this girl.

Somehow a lot of rather precise individual active woman suppression (Eleanore I, Lady de la Haie and Eleanore II) in the aftermath of the troubadour knight romances and this one "free and emancipated woman Eleanore, Queen of Aquitaine". They did their best to get the girls back to the kitchen.

... what happened parallel? Right. 1209 the Albigensian wars started. Kabbala took a start, c. 1170 Narbonne. 1204 ... Constantinople was taken by Venice. 1212 Battle of Las Navas de Tolosa ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... _de_Tolosa

... :-) ... the numbers are rather fantastic , 50.000 Chrstians against 200.000 Muslims. 2000 Christians dead, 100.000 - 150.000 Muslims also. What shall one say about this? Good work of the troubadours and the "open purse" for poets.

The Kabbala and the general spread of the Albigensian before the war might have been well connected to the liberty-phase connected to Eleanor I. The opening effect of the earlier crusades should have opened also the ways of remaining Balkan-religions (Bogomils) to the West. With the loss of stability by the fall of Constantinople 1204 the Catholic church had enough force to drive some actions against Western problems, 1209 Albigensian in Southern France, and 1212 Muslims in Spain. "Female dominance" in English territory was a third problem which had to be controlled. Another ... Jews in England started to become suppressed with the coronation of Richard I. Lionheart (1189) ... 100 years later (1290) they had to leave England for some hundred years, which became the begin of further persecutions and expulsions at the continent (expulsion France followed in 14th century, Spain 1492).

And Morgana became a bad woman. Good work of the troubadours ... said with some sarcasm.

************

Perhaps there's some sense in the idea, that a lot of husbands went on crusade, and left some air for women to have some development for their own. And at least some of the husbands didn't come back at all.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: A strange belt

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One of the things I find delightful about history is the way names are misspelled or one Arthur is taken for another etc.

That's too bad you can't get the YouTube file for the song Huck--frustrating. It's really beautiful.