Re: A strange belt

11
Huck wrote: b. wouldn't be a contradiction. It might well be, that Pulci chose the stone-throwing-scenario, cause there were stone battles at Florentine carnival.
Yes, maybe. Good thinking.
Huck wrote: The Fool had already appeared in other decks (at least the Bembo cards existed), so there was already a sort of small tradition at least.
Yes, but is the first (and almost only) time that the fool appears as a giant. We only have another case: Momo in Ercole deck, but its a god, does not count. Therefore, we must look crazy giant in Florence. This becomes important your theory about the influence of Morgante.

Gigants and fool are related. The best example is Gargantua and Pantagruel, of course ... But what happened in the fourteenth century? I'm working on this. I have not yet completely clear.
Huck wrote: Though I don't know, if this happened also in Italy in 15th century.
Yes, you know an important case, but dont remember :) :
giga.jpg giga.jpg Viewed 9304 times 31.66 KiB
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=418&p=6450&hilit=costantio#p6450
Huck wrote: I think, that the Medici idea to take a French theme was related to the Medici interest in the young French dauphin Louis. Surely Cosimo, who had his spies everywhere...
Yes. I agree with all this.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: A strange belt

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Yes, you're right with the marriage of Costanzo ... so it stays, that it at least was used once, but very likely more often.
Generally they had Greek Mythology as a favored topic, and there were giants, for instance ...

Image


... who in antique time probably had been a literary reflection of the coloss of Rhodos, in other words a tower with some light above to give an orientation for ships.

Atlas would give another giant picture, he appears in the later Tarocco Siciliano.

Generally it's an easy perception, that Pulci played the Guardian of some 8-12 years old boys (Lorenzo born 1449, so 12 in 1461, when "Morgante started"; Giuliano born 1461, so 8 in 1461; a cousin, who died 1463, similar old as Giuliano) and "invited friends" and that during the games Pulci occasionally played the "friendly giant", and if the boys were occupied in their own games, Pulci seated somewhere in the bushes and combined words to make a poem ... so reported by Lorenzo, I think; but at least this appears in some literature of the "boys" ... ah, here it is:
That's the famous note, written by Lorenzo in "La caccia col falcone"

http://books.google.com/books?id=iY8LAA ... &q&f=false

see: page 19

"Luigi Pulci ov' è, che non si sente?
Egli se n'andò dianzi in quel boschetto.
Che qualche fantasìa ha per la mente,
Vorrà fantasticar forse un sonetto; "

(I've in memory, that the "La caccia col falcone" is given to 1467, but that's not sure)


And if the boys took some rest, than Pulci played the poet and made some "Morgante orations", which was his second function, to get the boys involved in literature, and very naturally then Pulci was Morgante, and likely Lorenzo had been Orlando, and the other boys were naturally also heroes.

The Morgante took very quick advance towards canto 15 or 16 (I've to find the passage again, where this is reported) till 1463 ... then there's death in the family and all becomes more serious, and the Morgante stopped, evolving much later and possibly changed in some earlier parts.
And the whole text is then around 1463 an "inner-Medici-cycle-event", an amusement for the kids, and only possibly with some chances to become later "literature".

Similar the state of the Charles VI. cards ... perhaps it wasn't intended to make an edition, which left the own house, but it seems to have developed, as we hear from Florentine Trionfi cards exports. And we don't know with security, if the deck, that we have, was the original version, or an already modified version a little later, at least it seems to have bewared enough of the indications, which make it plausible to conclude, that it is "somehow from 1463".
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: A strange belt

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Generally they had Greek Mythology as a favored topic, and there were giants, for instance ...
Well, as you know, that's a cyclops. Not a giant :p ...

Yes, there were giants in Greek mythology, of course, but I think Pulci's giant [I begin to understand this fool genitive :) ] derives of medieval giant, which derives from the Scandinavian giant (stupid and strong).

+++++
Generally it's an easy perception, that Pulci played the [...]
Yes. I think it's a good working hypothesis. We need search giants in Firenze before Pulci. If we dont find any giant pre-Pulci, the Morgante's hypothesis gains +++.

+++++

Looking giants in Florence, I have discovered a curious history.

1. In 1546, Antonio da Pazzi organized a "trionfo dei pazzi" for Carnival. Its very interesting. I found this information (primary) about this:
http://books.google.es/books?id=TwTPvyl ... 46&f=false

2. One carioth is dedicated to the triumph of madness. In the car, with fools and hunchbackeds, is a minor poet calling Girolamo Amerlonghi. He have a kind of literary fight with Alfonso da Pazzi (kidding).
locg_4.gif locg_4.gif Viewed 9298 times 14.81 KiB
http://books.google.es/books?id=4SsUAAA ... &q&f=false

3. One year after, Girolamo Amerlonghi write the Gigantea, a parody poem where the giants throw the gods of Olympus. The Giants are a bit crazy. It seems that was an allegory about literary discussions of the time (against the literary related with the power). I found some connection to the Minchiate, but I have no time to analyze this. The important issues is they are fools and giants.

(Curious, this poem was answered by Michelangelo Serafini with her Nanea. The gods are allied with the dwarves and beat the giants cast. Another response was written by Antonfranfesco Grazzini, aka Il Lasca: Guerra dei mostri :D)

The three poems are in:

http://books.google.es/books?id=wYUHAAA ... navlinks_s

+++++

Plus:

In Gigantea, Amerlonghi speack about the new game of Premiera. Its played with a strange deck, with frogs, parrots, bats, and "ghiri" (shrews?).
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: A strange belt

15
mmfilesi wrote:
Generally they had Greek Mythology as a favored topic, and there were giants, for instance ...
Well, as you know, that's a cyclops. Not a giant :p ...

Yes, there were giants in Greek mythology, of course, but I think Pulci's giant [I begin to understand this fool genitive :) ] derives of medieval giant, which derives from the Scandinavian giant (stupid and strong).

+++++
Generally it's an easy perception, that Pulci played the [...]
Yes. I think it's a good working hypothesis. We need search giants in Firenze before Pulci. If we dont find any giant pre-Pulci, the Morgante's hypothesis gains +++.
There were only 3 Cyclops and the one of Ulysses was an early forgery ... :-)

... and actually there were only 24 giants. And all the later were simply too big ... .-)

I would think, that earlier Florentine giants wouldn't affect the originality of Pulci's giants. He made, that Morgante and Margutte were extraordinary funny and this made the stuff to "world literature" and nothing else.

There were lot of giants in the Arthurian legends, I would assume.
... :-) and there was Rübezahl, the giant in the region, where the people nowadays play Schafkopf ... .-) in the so called Riesengebirge. And the Italians and Romans always believed, that the old and modern Germans were too big.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: A strange belt

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Thanks, for the picture friend.

****

Yes, maybe... We can work in this line

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Very interesting this Rübezahl, thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%BCbezahl

****
And the Italians and Romans always believed, that the old and modern Germans were too big. :D

Well... Not only the Italians believed it... Many years ago I go in Frankfurt and Berlin... My goodness! The barbarians are big, sure! :p
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: A strange belt

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I think, that Morgante took his name from Morgan Le Fay ... associating in a funny way some Arthurian stuff inside the Charlemain story.

Pulci talked in his later letters (since 1466 or 67) to Lorenzo a lot about spirits and had magical ideas. He was accused to be a kabbalist by Matteo Franco (1474) and later condemned by Ficino, who took at this opportunity not very lovely positions near to a "local inquisition". The relationship Pulci-Lorenzo cooled down to express it harmless. Pulci suffered by this persecution. Later he attempted to get out of "this bad name" and searched a diplomatic agreement. However, when he died in Padova in 1484, the people there didn't allow, that he was buried in consecrated ground.

Morgan le Fay had a sister, Elaine and Morgause. I think Pulci transformed this name game in Morgante and Margutte.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_le_Fay

*********

Andrea Vitali has detected a theater play with a short Tarocchi game passage from a very famous man, Giordano Bruno, written in Paris 1582. The play is a comedy with magical elements and the dedication is made to a (likely fictive) Lady with the name Morgana B. ... :-)

It's a rather new detection, see ...

Giordano Bruno e i Tarocchi
http://www.associazioneletarot.it/Giord ... 3_ita.aspx
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: A strange belt

20
Huck wrote:I think, that Morgante took his name from Morgan Le Fay ... associating in a funny way some Arthurian stuff inside the Charlemain story.

Pulci talked in his later letters (since 1466 or 67) to Lorenzo a lot about spirits and had magical ideas. He was accused to be a kabbalist by Matteo Franco (1474) and later condemned by Ficino, who took at this opportunity not very lovely positions near to a "local inquisition". The relationship Pulci-Lorenzo cooled down to express it harmless. Pulci suffered by this persecution. Later he attempted to get out of "this bad name" and searched a diplomatic agreement. However, when he died in Padova in 1484, the people there didn't allow, that he was buried in consecrated ground.

Morgan le Fay had a sister, Elaine and Morgause. I think Pulci transformed this name game in Morgante and Margutte.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgan_le_Fay
Very interesting, thanks Huck.



*********
Huck wrote: Andrea Vitali has detected a theater play with a short Tarocchi game passage from a very famous man, Giordano Bruno, written in Paris 1582. The play is a comedy with magical elements and the dedication is made to a (likely fictive) Lady with the name Morgana B. ... :-)

:-? This is the fragment:
Barra: Veramente la fu buona. - Ma io che non so tanto di rettorica, solo soletto, senza compagnia, l'altr'ieri, venendo da Nola per Pumigliano, dopoi ch'ebbi mangiato, non avendo tropo buona fantasia di pagare, dissi al tavernaio: "Messer osto, vorrei giocare". "A qual gioco", disse lui, "volemo giocare? cqua ho de tarocchi". Risposi: "A questo maldetto gioco non posso vencere, perché ho una pessima memoria". Disse lui: "Ho di carte ordinarie". Risposi: "Saranno forse segnate, che voi le conoscerete. Avetele che non siino state ancor adoperate?" Lui rispose de non. "Dunque, pensiamo ad altro gioco". "Ho le tavole sai?" "Di queste non so nulla". "Ho de scacchi, sai?" "Questo gioco mi farebbe rinegar Cristo". Allora, gli venne il senapo in testa: "A qual, dunque, diavolo di gioco vorrai giocar tu? proponi". Dico io: "A stracquare a pall'e maglio" lì. Disse egli: "Come, a pall'e maglio? vedi tu cqua tali ordegni? vedi luoco da posservi giocare?" Dissi: "A la mirella?" "Questo è gioco da fachini, bifolchi e guardaporci". "A cinque dadi?". "Che diavolo di cinque dadi? mai udivi di tal gioco. Si vuoi, giocamo a tre dadi".

Io gli dissi, che a tre dadi non posso aver sorte. "Al nome di cinquantamila diavoli", disse lui, "si vuoi giocare, proponi un gioco che possiamo farlo e voi ed io". Gli dissi: "Giocamo a spaccastrommola". "Va'", disse lui, "ché tu mi dai la baia: questo è gioco da putti, non ti vergogni?" "Or su, dunque", dissi, "giocamo a correre". "Or, questi è falsa": disse lui. Ed io soggionsi: "Al sangue dell'Intemerata, che giocarai!" "Vuoi far bene", disse, "pagami; e si non vuoi andar con Dio, va' col prior de' diavoli!" Io dissi: "Al sangue delle scrofole, che giocarai!" "E che non gioco?" diceva. "E che giochi?" dicevo. "E che mai mai vi giocai?" "E che vi giocarrai adesso?" "E che non voglio?" "E che vorrai?" In conclusione, comincio io a pagarlo co le calcagne, ideste a correre; ed ecco, quel porco che poco fa diceva che non volea giocare, e giurò che non volea giocare, e giurò che non volea giocare, e giocò lui, e giocorno dui altri suoi guattari: di sorte che, per un pezzo correndomi a presso, mi arrivorno e giunsero..., co le voci. Poi, ti giuro, per la tremenda piaga di S. Rocco, che né io l'ho più uditi, né essi mi hanno più visto».

Its interesting, but I think the tarot as another single scenic element. That is, not the structure of the work, as Tarocchi Apropiati. It's a casual reference. Not very important.

Vitali gives great importance this text: "perché ho una pessima memoria".
All’inizio dell’articolo abbiamo sottolineato l’importanza di quest’opera in riferimento al fatto che Giordano Bruno fu straordinario artefice dello studio dell’arte della mnemonica. In quest’ottica risulta quanto mai interessante il fatto che Bruno, parlando di tarocchi metta in bocca al mariuolo Barra le parole “A questo maldetto gioco non posso vencere, perché ho una pessima memoria". Una frase con cui l’autore qualifica se stesso rendendosi estraneo alla nullità dei mediocri.
But I think Vitali, and I love the Vitali's essays, sometimes overestimate a simple deck of cards. I have fear. This text can made much literature about the tarot and the art of memory. More noise in the concert started by Gèbellin x_x : Egyptians, Alchemists, Templars, Kabbalists, aliens, Rosicrucians... and nothing history...
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)