If this post has no value, then please just delete it.

I've just finished reading the old AT thread(s) re. the Tower XV1, and am wondering if any conclusion was reached. (http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=58298)

With regard to the metetorite shower/black stones - which made the most impression on me - I have wondered about a connection to the previous card, Devil XV. The reason being that quotes from the posts there (or maybe linked ones....), say that these stones were thought to contain souls - life energies, they were thought to be 'alive'. And early depictions of XV clearly show a creature inhabited by many faces.

Now I know that these faces have also been interpreted as being the 'legions' in/of the christian Satan, and it is also sugggested as being related to stone masons. But is it not possible that this card could be part of a possible tarot sequence which contains the remnants of some historic 'astronomical' occurance?

As the very early cards were not numbered - the actual original sequence is not known to us - perhaps they are a little out of order? And as natural disasters were also identified with God or the Gods, the card names/meanings, over time (and across countries), are likely to have become less 'pure'.

Fascinating info in those threads, but they just seemed to dry up.

Bee

Good stuff, Bernice!

I personally think that there are more than one possible connections between XV and XVI, including the very possibility between the pseudo-infancy gospel of the 'fall of idols' as Mary and Child entered the Egyptian lands. Here it would have been viewed that the false worship of idols was by the temptations of the Devil. So in that possible connection, the two cards become far more intrinsically connected than we may even normally consider in modern days.

The second aspect is of the destruction brought forth by the comet (and asteroïds) is as from the unleashed forces of the Devil, so, again, a close connection between the two cards can be made.

I personally look forward to reading how this thread develops!

Hello jmd,

Thanks for responding, I thought that maybe the topic had been chewed over and done & dusted
You used a phrase I'm not familiar with:

"...pseudo-infancy gospel of the 'fall of idols' as Mary and Child entered the Egyptian lands."

I don't know of this... or perhaps I do but not with this viewpoint/understanding.
But after reading that you see a possible connection with the story of Jesus, I have remembered that Italy was indeed 'christian' at that time (and probably still is), so any & all catastrophes would have been interpreted religiously. Which in turn means that card designers/makers - depending on their depth of belief - would
portray 'disaster' images as such.
And noticing Roseannes eye for detail re. the falling stones/yods/hail (whatever) on the Tower card, I have
wondered if the shape of them would be changed by successive card makers who were unaware of the original 'drawings'. Once they had blocks to work from, they would have perpetuated any discrepancies.

At this current time I'm thinking that the 22 cards were part historical disaster, part religious, and part social
(i.e. politics of the times & places). Still comparing card pics though, so this might change.

Bee

Bernice wrote:
You used a phrase I'm not familiar with:

"...pseudo-infancy gospel of the 'fall of idols' as Mary and Child entered the Egyptian lands."

JMD has some great pictures of petroglyphs of the fall of idols that show a clear resemblance. No doubt he post or give a link to them here.

The story of the fall of idols can be found in Pseudo Matthew:

http://www.gnosis.org/library/psudomat.htm

Though not in as great detail as the that of pseudo-Mathew The fall fo Idols is also included in chapter IV of THE FIRST GOSPEL OF THE INFANCY OF JESUS CHRIST:

http://www.orthodox.cn/patristics/apost ... fancy1.htm

The Story of the Fall of Idols was included in the very popular 13th/14th century Meditationes Vitae Christi by Italian Franciscan
Johannes de Caulibus (attributed for some time by some to St. Bonaventura) that was translated into most european vernaculars. It was translated into English by Nicholas Love as Meditations, The Mirrour of the Blessed Lyf of Jesu Christ, 1410:

http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/exhibns/month/jul2000.html

http://www.holycross.edu/departments/vi ... d/love.htm

A 13th century English portrayal of the fall of idols from the Brook infancy cycle:

http://www.paintedchurch.org/brookinf.htm

For another image of idols falling from columbs see for example Chapter XI, p.162 of Wilson, Adrian, and Joyce Lancaster Wilson. A Medieval Mirror. Berkeley: University of California Press, c1984 1984. Available online here: http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft7v19p1w6/

a. Omnia ydola corruerunt intrante ihesu in egiptum
(all the idols fell on the entry of Jesus into Egypt)

Also:
http://med-imag.english.cam.ac.uk/zoomtest.asp?id=104

http://med-imag.english.cam.ac.uk/zoomtest.asp?id=239

http://med-imag.english.cam.ac.uk/zoomtest.asp?id=560

SteveM wrote: A 13th century English portrayal of the fall of idols from the Brook infancy cycle:

http://www.paintedchurch.org/brookinf.htm

That's another great version, and the falling figure is very reminiscent of the Tower.

We should add paintedchurch to the history links. It's an incredible site.

le pendu wrote:

SteveM wrote: A 13th century English portrayal of the fall of idols from the Brook infancy cycle:

http://www.paintedchurch.org/brookinf.htm

That's another great version, and the falling figure is very reminiscent of the Tower.

We should add paintedchurch to the history links. It's an incredible site.

I agree, 'tis done.

Did you see these two on the theme of 'warning to sabbath breakers' that appear to include cards, the five and six of diamonds respectively?

http://www.paintedchurch.org/breagsab.htm

http://www.paintedchurch.org/hessesab.htm

The site suggests that the five of diamonds was deliberately chosen in reference to the five wounds of christ.

AT last! Had trouble all day trying to login. Very very slow connection - kept timing out.

Just got in the give the above links which I saw a AT this evening.... but you've had 'em!
Fantastic, yes?

Bee

Hello Bee...
I m very happy that you decided to log in here at this friendly place.
With regard to the fire flames topic,I just think that must have in mind that in not all decks these fire flames comes from the sun so toward the tower.I mentioned this because change at least a part of the possible meaning.
So as we knows...
1-Fire flames coming from the Sun: Only Chosson and Conver.
2-Fire flames coming from the Tower so toward the Sun: Noblet,Dodal and Jean Pierre Payen.

-I remember Andrea Vitali article about XVI card that I post here and I regret that is in Spanish,so if anyone find the English version,I strongly suggest to attach here.
Now I remember that you Robert open at the menu a section for this great mind and aside Ego "serious problems" ...(So friends,go there ...)

-Bee may be here JMD and Steve M help us too much.Andrea Vitali in his article mentioned the Hebrew letter Bethel,and he pointed that have a closest relation with "stones that comes form the sky" so "sent" by God.
But there he distinguish by colours between the stones send by God and the others by Satan ( So close as we see on ours dear decks)
Stones sent by Satan are authorized by God to punish the human being ( Must be say precisely,to the women for talks too much at the morning after one wake up from bed... // Just a joke... // I know that I came from purgatory Robert ).
Well BTW I want to make a distinction between Satan and Lucifer here...
I think Bee that you have in mind Lucifer when he fall along his fallen angels and Satan when God punish human being. ( I m sure Madam).

-BTW way Robert I think XV card worth an own thread,because has many too many "avenues" of thoughts,as just I think...

Ps //Anyone here could tell me why can attached images from my image bank computer in it s own size ?

Eugim

Well, I started that AT thread, so obviously this is something I find particularly interesting to discuss.

To recap the basic premise:

The "Tower" card is called "The House of God" on the Marseille decks. Round objects are shown "floating" around the Tower.


On old Italian decks it was called "The Lightening", "The Thunder", "The Arrow" or "The Fire".
http://www.tarothermit.com/tower.htm


On the Vieville deck and Belgian Tarots, a figure stands, with goats or sheep, beside a tree and objects fall from the sky.


When doing a search for House of God, I noticed that the name was the same as "Beth-El", and thought that was very intriguing, and then discovered that Bethel was also the name for meteroites... voila! Back to the Tower card again.

So, with *my* understanding that the images from the Tarot de Marseille existed before the titles and numbers were added, I tend to think of the titles as what the "title-maker" thought was being pictured.

THE question: Is what is being pictured on the Tower card a Meteorite Shower?

Are we looking at "Bethels"? Does the "House of God" refer not to the tower, but to the "Thunderballs" in the sky? Would this explain why the "tower" itself isn't on several related cards, because the tower isn't really the subject? Does the alternate titles support the idea that it's the event in the sky that matters, not the tower itself?

It got even more interesting to me when I started working based off of Jean-MIchels images of the "Flight to Egypt" and the "Fall of the Idols", as carved in medieval European churches such as this:

That's an image of the Fall of the Idols, and it looks very similar to the Tower of the Tarot.

Jean-Michel as found these images of comets and events in the sky:




Marco added this one:


Here's a page that talks about the flight into egypt, and has another version of the Tower image :
http://egypt.cla.umn.edu/Flight.html


Which looks like the same as the one Jean-Michel posted from the Abbey Church of St Peter in Moissac, circa 1130s.

This image connects the Fall of the Idols with the Flight into Egypt.


Another site from Egypt about the "Holy family in Egypt":
http://www.touregypt.net/holyfamily2.htm
With this image which I find really interesting showing the Flight, and an object in the sky (supposedly from "Coptic Museum, Old Cairo":


So... there's nothing to really tie this all up together. It's a bunch of interesting "six degrees of separation" that could mean something, or nothing at all.

One more little piece to go back to the question of a connection between the Devil and the Tower, is to look again at the Minchiate with the image that might be the "Expulsion", but could also be the "Harrowing of Hell"

So it could be that here the Tower is connected with Hell, that's one that comes to my mind.

As much as I love Jean-Claude Flornoy,I'm not convinced at all that the Vieville is somehow connected with the "stone cutters", it's a nice fable, but I've never seen anything to argue the point. The faces on the devil have always been explained (as far as I know) as showing his "appetite", his "insatiability". It's easy as well to imagine, especially with the eyes often shown on the wings and body, that it is also his being "always on the watch" for an opportunity to mislead and tempt.

Also..

A few things I find very interesting about the Cary Sheet:
http://highway55.library.yale.edu/PHOTO ... 613378.jpg

There doesn't seem to be room for the "sun" or whatever is exploding in the sky on the Tarot de Marseille tower. The top of the Tower is almost reaching the top of the card.

But, even as early as around the year 1500, the round circles surround the tower.

The cow(?) reminds me of the Vieville.