Re: The Tower XV1 and the Devil XV - connection?

Hello Robert and the all friends here...

-LE DIABLE... (XV: V+V+V + V ( XX) / So the Angel of resurrection. / So two X.Cross an X horizontal to the first X and you will have the Templar cross,my friend.

-What a deeply misunderstood subject...

-Some start points just for me of course.

1-LE DIABLE is the Matter so Satan so not Lucifer.
2-Lucifer is the Soul which left the paradise to experience the Matter (by his own decision ),thus the human body to acquire experience.
3-The matter as shown by quantum mechanic is intelligent,so as Niels Bohr explained the mater is like an hologram so a particle of this matter,show to us the rest. / Macrocosmos as the old good friend Socrates explained for example...
4-The purpose ? / As I said is to acquire expreince.The Anima Mundi so Lucifer,so the human being left the paradise for that purpose.
Then will return to God and as Christ said "You are best than Angels " / "You will do best things that I did " ...
5-Satan is the " Adversary ",may be JMD or Stve could help me here if I m wrong.
He is the Matter,so not Lucifer ( From lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"),so the Venus that rise at dawn.
Lucifer is the promise renewed each day,the Soul that wait so patiently,so lovely,so very understading...
6-The pair you gave to us I just think must "Call" XIII necessary here,,,
On the Chosson thread I posted that it s curious how Death has victims behind and forward also.
Should be that a depiction of a perpetual "work" ?
I mean :
* Lucifer: Human being acquiring experience through the Matter.
*Satan: The matter.
*Death / XIII: The as a result of " Work well done " ,then comes the harvesting the time to live aside the worst done with rgard to the best done.
So save ours conquest,ours innermost jewels won with too much suffering...
7-Here I attachment an image of Fra Angelico Masterpiece about the hell..From about my past 40 years when I saw it at my Art School,to now I m still very impressed about the two humans literally coming out from his neck as it s show on these link ( ... co_010.jpg )
8-Well my good friend Robert,surely there is a link between LE DIABLE and the Angel of course.
For things of that Jacques de Molay was burned ...


The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: The Tower XV1 and the Devil XV - connection?

EUGIM wrote:Here I attachment an image of Fra Angelico Masterpiece about the hell..From about my past 40 years when I saw it at my Art School,to now I m still very impressed about the two humans literally coming out from his neck as it s show on these link ( ... co_010.jpg )
It looks to me like the devil has three mouths on his head, and the figures are being eaten, not coming out of his neck... But I could be mistaken.

When a clock is hungry, it goes back four seconds.

Re: The Tower XV1 and the Devil XV - connection?

Nice to meet you here Melancholic ...

You re right...
So along with this the two human which run away from devil neck and passing unoticed by him (Really ? ) may be show to us (or just for me..) that the devil isn t just only eating them,but all of us are part of him...
So why not the devil just vomit them ?
If you see closely both figures are alive so not death.They are trying to escape so they are alive ...

-That show for me we have the ancestral heritage of the Matter,so the same nature,so something that isn t outside us only,something that we have to transmutate,and till these we surely be eaten many times by the devil until he hasn t any to eat.
So the limits between the inside and outside aren t real because rhe elements of both are the same after all

The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: The Tower XV1 and the Devil XV - connection?

No wish to disrupt your on-going discussion but...

I want to make it quite clear before you read the following, that I have no idea;
1) how this could possibly be connected to the Tower
2) Whether or not it was practised - or even known of - in any other land.
3) How, where, or when it began.

'Tis yet another conjecture.... (Chuck it out of the window if you want, but be nice to me :))

How do we not know that the Devil was originally a portrayal of a Sin-Eater?

The following is taken from:
"A less known but even more remarkable functionary, whose professional services were once considered necessary to the dead, is the sin-eater. Savage tribes have been known to slaughter an animal on the grave, in the belief that it would take upon itself the sins of the dead. In the same manner, it was the province of the human scapegoat to take upon himself the moral trespasses of his client--and whatever the consequences might be in the after life--in return for a miserable fee and a scanty meal. That such a creature should be unearthed from a remote period of pagan history would be surprising enough, but to find reliable evidence of his existence in the British Isles a hundred years ago is surely very much more remarkable.

Professor Evans of the Presbyterian College, Carmarthen, actually saw a sin-eater about the year 1825, who was then living near Llanwenog, Cardiganshire. Abhorred by the superstitious villagers as a thing unclean, the sin-eater cut himself off from all social intercourse with his fellow creatures by reason of the life he had chosen; he lived as a rule in a remote place by himself, and those who chanced to meet him avoided him as they would a leper. This unfortunate was held to be the associate of evil spirits, and given to witchcraft, incantations and unholy practices; only when a death took place did they seek him out, and when his purpose was accomplished they burned the wooden bowl and platter from which he had eaten the food handed across, or placed on the corpse for his consumption.

Howlett mentions sin-eating as an old custom in Hereford, and thus describes the practice: "The corpse being taken out of the house, and laid on a bier, a loaf of bread was given to the sin-eater over the corpse, also a maga-bowl of maple, full of beer. These consumed, a fee of sixpence was given him for the consideration of his taking upon himself the sins of the deceased, who, thus freed, would not walk after death." He suggests the connection between the sin-eater and the Jewish scapegoat of the old Testament."
Sounds very christian-orientated, but then the tarot took off in a christian environment.

Bee :) :) :)

Re: The Tower XV1 and the Devil XV - connection?

I have always been fascinated by sin-eaters. The concept always bring to my mind a particular character who worked at an apartment building I used to live. This was a man of undiscernible age, his face heavily wrinkled, his skin very rough and dark in a redish way. His eyes were yellow, like dog’s eyes. He wore a blue mechanic’s overall, heavy constructions boots, all of this heavily stained. He stunk. He always carried a seven feet-long pipe. He had no name. He never spoke. He was known as the “man with the pipe”, and his job was to come to your apartment to push the garbage down the shut if something got stuck. He had a cursed aura that has to do with his relationship with garbage, and I always thought this was very similar to Korean shamans, who are despised in public due to their connection with the realm of misfortune. Just as my “man with the pipe”, just as the sin eaters.

Misfortune, garbage, sins. The realm of these things we won’t touch with a seven feet pole.

I have come to understand The Tower under a different light after seeing Lightning with Stag in its Glare, by Joseph Beuys. You can see an image here: ... _17_3.html

The composition’s central piece is huge, and I find fascinating the way Beuys managed to suggest the lighting’s glare, an almost ethereal event, by the heaviness of this central piece. It may be hard to explain in words, but the sense of impending doom implicit on having that huge piece of bronze over you generates a tension that becomes metaphor of a lighting bolt.

Light suggested by mass.

You can stand below this huge piece of bronze, physically petrified, forever. Like bounded by invisible chains. Like in Le Diable.

This bi-polar opposite brought to my mind the idea of thunder-as-sprout that is implicit on the I Ching. This is, the sprout of a seed, breaking the ground in an upward motion can also be conceived as a thunder. ‘Sproutasthunder’. Heaviness as a glare. It all ties up with La Maison Dieu in the Noblet. The sprouting thunder coming from the tower and reaching to the sun. The impending Diable always about to strike.

Perhaps nothing of this makes sense.


What’s honeymoon salad? Lettuce alone
Don’t look now, mayonnaise is dressing!

Re: The Tower XV1 and the Devil XV - connection?

The concept and discussion about the 'sin-eater' is fascinating... especially when considering some of the images of the devil (or devils) consuming the dead: one would hope that it is indeed the 'sin' that is consumed rather than the whole human being, and by the act somehow purifies the human from being tainted by those acquired excressenses.

In terms of exegetical reflection, this brings quite a powerful dimension to the card imagery that may not otherwise be apparent, and personally find the idea to be one of those that I occasionally come across that really adds to existing work - thankyou.

With linking the card with that of Death (and others), there is of course always this possibility from a variety of perspectives. On the one hand, there is in terms of iconography, something that is 'naturally' obvious in that the Devil's lurings have eschatological considerations. On the other hand, there are natural distinctions that also have to be maintained, as the reaping of life is part of the natural cycle, whereas the depiction of trans-natural beings (such as the Devil) brings to mind and reflection particular world-views that, admittedly, includes reflections on Death.

With the image of the Maison Dieu ('Tower'), I remain rather convinced that what is intended stems from the pseudo-infancy gospels and the toppling of false idols, in this case very likely an anachronistic view mixing the toppling of idols with the more then contemporary toppling of minarets.

Re: The Tower XV1 and the Devil XV - Alchemy connection?

Hello JMD and nice to meet you here again ...
1-I m agree as always with you.
Devil just for me the Matter to which we all are tied as the card show.
2-XIII the death with victims behind and ahead,so a perpetual work she is doing.
3-XIIII doing a balance of the new elements as a result of the work did by XIII,so to renew the Matter (XV)
4-XVI The work of the innermost fire ( " For our God is a consuming fire " / Hebrews 12 : 29 )
5- XVII -The matter transmutated return to the "Water of Life "

My best as ever,

eugim :)
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: The Tower XV1 and the Devil XV - connection?


1-I ve been thinking just if only Fritjof Capra and David Bohm did read Psychology and Alchemy of Carl Gustav Jung,then the Corps Hermeticum and the Gospel of John and few others Alchemical texts,may be they found sustain for theirs ideas about quantum.
2-I mean Matter as a whole,as a Divine greatest Idea where each minimal particle its related to the whole as the hologram example of David Bohm.
Each particle having within the information encoded of the Whole.
The whole as it s own dimensional level.
3-Thus we living on a level of this Matter-God Idea trying to concieve it with ours Matter Mind...
4-What told us the mystics of all religions around the world from the past ?
That once the human being untied him from the chain of Matter,the only then one can meet the divine god idea in its purest energy.
5-So that s why one now can t reach this level,just because ours body,emotions and thoughts are Matter themselves.
Thus that s why we can t conceive God in his purest being.
For our God is a consuming fire./Hebrews 12:29

The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests