Virgil - 4 Eclogue - pmb

1
Hi friends! :)

Well ... the hypothesis is a bit crazy.

In PMB, the trionfi Star - Moon - Sun seem structure a speech about a pregnancy and children ...

Pregnancy: star - The Virgin: moon -The child: sun

This reminded me of Virgil's fourth eclogue, which was associated during the Middle Ages with the arrival of Jesus.
Muses of Sicily, essay we now
A somewhat loftier task! Not all men love
Coppice or lowly tamarisk: sing we woods,
Woods worthy of a Consul let them be.

Now the last age by Cumae's Sibyl sung
Has come and gone, and the majestic roll
Of circling centuries begins anew:
Justice returns, returns old Saturn's reign,
With a new breed of men sent down from heaven.
Only do thou, at the boy's birth in whom
The iron shall cease, the golden race arise,
Befriend him, chaste Lucina; 'tis thine own
Apollo reigns. And in thy consulate,
This glorious age, O Pollio, shall begin,
And the months enter on their mighty march.
Under thy guidance, whatso tracks remain
Of our old wickedness, once done away,
Shall free the earth from never-ceasing fear.
He shall receive the life of gods, and see
Heroes with gods commingling, and himself
Be seen of them, and with his father's worth
Reign o'er a world at peace. For thee, O boy,
First shall the earth, untilled, pour freely forth
Her childish gifts, the gadding ivy-spray
With foxglove and Egyptian bean-flower mixed,
And laughing-eyed acanthus. Of themselves,
Untended, will the she-goats then bring home
Their udders swollen with milk, while flocks afield
Shall of the monstrous lion have no fear.
Thy very cradle shall pour forth for thee
Caressing flowers. The serpent too shall die,
Die shall the treacherous poison-plant, and far
And wide Assyrian spices spring. But soon
As thou hast skill to read of heroes' fame,
And of thy father's deeds, and inly learn
What virtue is, the plain by slow degrees
With waving corn-crops shall to golden grow,
From the wild briar shall hang the blushing grape,
And stubborn oaks sweat honey-dew. Nathless
Yet shall there lurk within of ancient wrong
Some traces, bidding tempt the deep with ships,
Gird towns with walls, with furrows cleave the earth.
Therewith a second Tiphys shall there be,
Her hero-freight a second Argo bear;
New wars too shall arise, and once again
Some great Achilles to some Troy be sent.
Then, when the mellowing years have made thee man,
No more shall mariner sail, nor pine-tree bark
Ply traffic on the sea, but every land
Shall all things bear alike: the glebe no more
Shall feel the harrow's grip, nor vine the hook;
The sturdy ploughman shall loose yoke from steer,
Nor wool with varying colours learn to lie;
But in the meadows shall the ram himself,
Now with soft flush of purple, now with tint
Of yellow saffron, teach his fleece to shine.
While clothed in natural scarlet graze the lambs.
"Such still, such ages weave ye, as ye run,"
Sang to their spindles the consenting Fates
By Destiny's unalterable decree.
Assume thy greatness, for the time draws nigh,
Dear child of gods, great progeny of Jove!
See how it totters- the world's orbed might,
Earth, and wide ocean, and the vault profound,
All, see, enraptured of the coming time!
Ah! might such length of days to me be given,
And breath suffice me to rehearse thy deeds,
Nor Thracian Orpheus should out-sing me then,
Nor Linus, though his mother this, and that
His sire should aid- Orpheus Calliope,
And Linus fair Apollo. Nay, though Pan,
With Arcady for judge, my claim contest,
With Arcady for judge great Pan himself
Should own him foiled, and from the field retire.

Begin to greet thy mother with a smile,
O baby-boy! ten months of weariness
For thee she bore: O baby-boy, begin!
For him, on whom his parents have not smiled,
Gods deem not worthy of their board or bed.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Virgil - 4 Eclogue - pmb

2
Your hypothesis is quite interesting. The only problem that I see is in identifying the Moon lady in that particular deck with the Virgin--as much as I like identifying cards with the Virgin (e.g. Popess and Empress in the Marseille decks). Why does the PMB lady look so glum, if she's going to give birth to the Messiah? And why the broken bridle (symbol of temperance) or bow (symbol of Diana)?

Well, the glum expression might simply be what the artist thought was beautiful in a woman, and not reflective of any sad emotional state. Or she's glum because she's thinking about the crucifixion. Actually, Virgins who looked down glumly on their Christ-child were fairly common in the 15th century. And perhaps the bridle isn't broken, and she's holding it as a symbol of her chastity.

Another possibility: the lady is Leto, mother of Apollo. If Jesus = Apollo, she is the pagan equivalent of the Virgin. Leto was no virgin. She had surrendered both her virginity and her temperance to Jupiter, and was persecuted for her indiscretion by Juno, who locked up the goddess of childbirth and drove her from the land, so that she had to be at sea. In such circumstances, she would certainly be glum. The other gods managed to defeat Hera's persecutions, and she did give birth, to twins, Diana and Apollo.

There might also be an analogy to Galeazzo Maria Sforza here, as Apollo. His mother had to endure some persecution by her father, who I think wanted her to leave Francisco, at times; and she had some difficulty conceiving, a couple of years' worth. His mother may at times have posed for paintings of the Virgin, with her first-born as the Christ-child (see kleio.com)--a way of safeguarding one's portrait from destruction in case of enemy invasion.

Now that that's settled, let me indulge in some over-interpretation.

In the translation of Virgil you quote, it is Justice that returns. That would seem to be a mistranslation, as the Latin has "Virgo."
Ultima Cumaei venit iam carminis aetas;
magnus ab integro saeclorum nascitur ordo.
Iam redit et Virgo, redeunt Saturnia regna;
iam nova progenies caelo demittitur alto.
Tu modo nascenti puero, quo ferrea primum
desinet ac toto surget gens aurea mundo,
casta fave Lucina: tuus iam regnat Apollo.

(Now comes the last age of the Cumaean song;
the great order of the ages arises anew.
Now the Virgin returns, and Saturn's reign returns;
now a new generation is sent down from high heaven.
Only, chaste Lucina, favour the child at his birth,
by whom, first of all, the iron age will end
and a golden race arise in all the world;
now your Apollo reigns.)
(http://www.rainybluedawn.com/translatio ... logue4.htm)
This correction suggests a problem in interpreting Virgil. How can the boy be born of a virgin, if he is Apollo? Or did begetting by a god somehow not count as intercourse? I don't know the details of Apollo's begetting. Juno always considered any of Jupiter's victims as a seductress, so her attitude can be discounted. (Lucina is Diana, said to have been born first and to have assisted in Apollo's birth.)

"Virgo" also tends to support your interpretation, since no one could be more virginal than the Virgin.

On the other hand, Jesus, too, was begotten by a god. So perhaps indeed begetting from a god doesn't count as intercourse, and both Leto and Mary could be considered virgins.

And "Virgo" at that time tended to mean Persephone, the Maiden, who was raped by Jupiter (images of the sign of the zodiac showed her with a sheaf of grain, symbolizing the harvest). That would be another cause for glumness, due to intemperance, causing destruction of virginity. But in that case, the child would be Dionysus, not Apollo. (Well, Galeazzo probably fancied himself as both.)

One thing that puzzled me at first was the reference at the end of the Eclogue to a 10 month pregnancy. But that was just the normal term (for the Romans) of 40 weeks, 10 lunar months.

Another aspect to the Eclogue is a possible reference to an actual ruler, such as Augustus. He was the adopted son of Julius Caesar, identified then with Jupiter. Both Julius and Augustus were deified, as the Renaissance knew (an inscription on his supposed tomb, the obelisk later moved to Vatican Square, even said so, as reported in Curran, The Egyptian Renaissance: The Afterlife of Ancient Egypt in Early Modern Italy.) If so, was Augustus's mother virginified, in the eyes of the Renaissance? I don't know. And is there then some assumed allusion to a new Augustus, also a new Apollo (covertly a Dionysus as well), in c. 1465-1475 century Italy, i.e. our own Galeazzo again?

Re: Virgil - 4 Eclogue - pmb

3
Hi friend, thanks for reply. :)

+++
, if she's going to give birth to the Messiah? And why the broken bridle (symbol of temperance) or bow (symbol of Diana)?
I think the hypothesis of Marco Ponzi is correct. Is a rope that symbolizes chastity (thats mind, one virgin, perhaps Maria).
So I thought, if the girdle is relevant for the Decan, possibly it is also relevant for the Moon: holding the girdle means "notice my girdle, it has a meaning". I checked Ripa's Iconologia and found out that the white girdle is, since the times of ancient Rome, a symbol of Virginity (a moral attribute of Diana)
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=401&start=30

+++
Well, the glum expression might simply be what the artist thought was beautiful in a woman,
Yes, I agree with this.

+++

The fourth eclogue of Virgil was generally interpreted as heralding the coming of Christ.

Now I am working with Giovanni di Hildesheim and her Historìa Trium Regum. I think these three cards represent the birth of Jesus... but may also be related with a marriage. For the moment, I cant said anything else, I am confused.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Virgil - 4 Eclogue - pmb

5
Yes, temperance = chastity. At least, I meant them as equivalent. I said "temperance" because I had just been looking at Corregio's "Triumph of Virtue" in Mantua, in which the bridle represented one of the four virtues, i.e. temperance (see detail at viewtopic.php?f=12&t=31&start=30#p8885). Probably it meant either chastity and temperance, depending on the context, to the extent that the word had different meanings.

I guess your point, and Marco's, is that if it's a bridle, then it's not broken. Her chastity is intact. Fair enough, on one reading--and maybe the "bow" interpretation can't be supported at all. I still think her expression is at best ambiguous. But as the Virgin she could be sad for her son's fate.

I don't deny your interpretation. I like it very much. Here is an image that I think supports your interpretation of the Moon card as the Virgin--although not here as mother; I used it in a blog I once wrote on the Moon card. (I didn't publish it, though, as there are things in it I need to revise.)

Image


Linda Dixon, my favorite commentator on Bosch, says of this painting
The Evanglist gazes past a blue angel, grazed with delicate, moth-like wings, who serves as the saint's intermediary between heaven and earth Beyond, in the heavens, is a vision of the Virgin Mary, who appears in Revelation as the 'apocalyptic woman clothed with the sun.' The future devastation of the world foretold by the saint is suggested in the background landscape, where several boats burn and sink in an otherwise bucolic rendition of green earth and hazy atmosphere. (Bosch p. 163)
An attitude of melancholy is almost inherent in associations to the Moon. Dixon says,
Bosch's Baptist takes the attitude of a melancholic, resting head on hand against the grassy knoll before him. This pose was part of the stock repertoire of physiognomic body language long before Durer's popular engraving Melancholia I of 1514...Bosch represents melancholia as the privileged domain of prophecy and genius, an attitude that was at the cutting edge of humanist culture...Their primary source was Aristotle, who linked the personality quirks and physical complaints of melancholics to creative geniuses and visionary prophets...There existed a humanist cult of the intellectual, revolving around the hermit saints, long before Ficino and Durer adopted the condition as a badge of privilege. The type of melancholia suffered by saintly hermits, called enthousiasme predisposed them to anti-socal behavior and frenzied prophetic vision. (Bosch p. 155f)

By "anti-social" Dixon has in mind the resistance of the saints to the requirements of the the Roman Empire. I quote this just to suggest that the attitude of the Moon-lady may be part of the moon-mad-melancholy associated with that heavenly body.

My same blog has the Star as the Star of Bethlehem and the Sun as Christ--among many other things, of course. Here is an image I used for the Sun, from Bosch's Haywain triptych.

Image


This is another melancholic image, of course, rather different from the PMB's.

In reading my old blog, I don't think the progression pregnancy-birth-childhood occurred to me for the three cards PMB cards. I certainly didn't write it down if I did. Once expressed, something like that progression seems obvious. But I can't recall seeing the sequence expressed in so many words before. For that I applaud you. (One resistance I have: the Moon card isn't a nativity scene. Another: in the Star card, Jesus seems to be descending from heaven, not already in her womb. So perhaps the sequence is: Jesus about to enter the womb, about to be born, about to come into his own.)

Besides, this one, I continue to think that there are more possibilities, more frameworks of interpretation, an ambiguousness that the Renaissance at that time prized. There is the Graeco-Roman interpretation, taking Virgil at face value, and the Sun card as Apollo, leaving Leto as the Moon. Or the Moon lady could be Diana, as Apollo's sister.was born first. (And there's always the three lights, going from dimmer to brighter.) This was the Renaissance, with all the rebirth of classical antiquity that the name implied. The Sforza intellectually were children of Renaissance humanism (see for example Wikipedia entries on Ludovico and Ansconio, which list Filelfo as their tutor).

The only marriage I see is that of Elisabeta Maria Sforza, which ended in her death in childbirth, as I have said in the "5x14 Theory: An Investigation, Part II" thread. If you come up with another, let us know!
Last edited by mikeh on 09 Oct 2010, 19:07, edited 3 times in total.

Re: Virgil - 4 Eclogue - pmb

6
Thanks friend :) .

Try to explain the building blocks of my air castle.

Premises

1. Huck theory 5x14 is correct. In origin, PMB have only 14 triumphs.

2. The six triumphs added, including Star, Moon and Sun, probably are around 1461 - 1465 or later. That's mind, after Medici deck.

3. In Italy, past and present, must be careful with the Virgin Maria. Remember the divine hierarchy: calcio (football) > Santa Madonna > God. That's mind, its not easy put (draw) the Virgin in a deck of cards. Euphemisms are needed... allegories.

Elements

We have this elements:

1. The three wise men are, at least, in Minchiate and rothschild sheet.

2. The Italian princes are very interested in the wise men. They are the only "rich" of the Bible. They are the only rich entering in the kingdom of heaven (Tim Parks). For example: Medici in Capella dei magi of Benozzo Gozzoli.

3. In Milano we have the church of st. Eustorgio. Very important in the legend of the three Magi.

Well... in the three PMB astronomical cards we have:

1.
Star: A pregnant women? (she have the hand in the stomach), dressed in blue and red (the Virgin Maria colours), whit a star with 8 rays, as the Star of Bethlehem in the bell tower of st. Eustorgio.

2. Moon - Chastity... We can relationship with Diana. For example, vd: Nozze di Costantio Sforza:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=418&hilit=Costanti ... t=20#p6399

And, this is very interesting to remember, we have one Diana in Alessandro Sforza deck (the "man in the moose").

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=496&p=7043&hilit=m ... oose#p7043

Well... maybe we can relationship this card too whit the Virgin (Panofsky explain the relationship beetwen Diana and the Virgin, for example).

I don't understand why she don't have shoes. <--- :-?

3. Sun. A children with Helios... Well, I think we can relationship the Sun-Helios whit Christ.

This leads us to the Nativity. The birth of Christ. The fourth eclogue of Virgil. And Its interesting remember that Christmas is just when playing cards. See for example, the 2 letters from Francesco Sforza to Antonio Trecho, in december of 1450.

http://trionfi.com/0/e/06/

+++++++++

But, the tree cards can put too in relationship with a marriage. We have this importan marriages in Sforza family beetwen 1465 / 1500

1468 - Galeazzo Maria with Bona di Savoia
1490 - Gian Galeazzo whit Isabella d'Aragona
1491 - Ludovico whit Beatrice d'Este

I think, if the cards are related whit a marriage (I am not sure whit this), then are this:

1468 - Galeazzo Maria with Bona di Savoia

+++++++++

I think that melancholic is associated with Saturn, not whit the moon.

+++++++++

Where are you blog? Please, tell me the URL. I am very interesting.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Virgil - 4 Eclogue - pmb

7
But, the tree cards can put too in relationship with a marriage. We have this importan marriages in Sforza family beetwen 1465 / 1500

1468 - Galeazzo Maria with Bona di Savoia
1490 - Gian Galeazzo whit Isabella d'Aragona
1491 - Ludovico whit Beatrice d'Este

I think, if the cards are related whit a marriage (I am not sure whit this), then are this:

1468 - Galeazzo Maria with Bona di Savoia
... :-) ... do you forget Ippolita in 1465 ...

If one accepts the 5x14 theory, then you've 6 cards left, which were added "after 1457" (assuming, that "before" the trump set had either 14 or 16 cards).

14 cards set ... tradition 5x14:

1.1.1441 (Ferrara / "young" Milan) -
14 Bembo cards ca. 1452 (Milan)
70 cards 1457 (Ferrara)

16 cards set ... tradition "chess-associated":

Michelino deck ca. 1425 ("old" Milan)
Cary-Yale ca. 1441 ("old" Milan)
but then happens:
Florence - Medici ("young" Florence) 1463

**************************

In 1463 the "Trionfi" allowance is repeated (earlier note had been 1450): The object is called "Trionfi"

In 1466 Pulci writes to Lorenzo about the Minchiate game. The object is called "Minchiate".

A name change signals "change", especially in the case of Minchiate, cause later the Minchiate has much more trumps than the usual Tarot. So the change should have happened between 1463 and 1466.

The 5x14 theory demands, that "once" the idea entered to change the number of the cards ... after 1457. From the given situation the change from" Trionfi" to "Minchiate" signals "a change" ... there are not much arguments or situations, which could compete.

When a change happened in Florence, the Medici would be the first, who are under suspicion.

The 5x14-theory is rather old, from a month May in 1989. Already then ... although a lot of later facts were not known and developed later ... it seemed clear, that it (likely) happened in 1465 and from the side of the Medici. 21 years of research and discussion didn't change that.

Why? Cause there were six cards and they looked like a model: 3 Cardinal virtues and the trio Star-Moon-Sun and the Medici made a heraldic exchange around the focused time (that it precisely happened in May 1465 was not known in May 1989) ... 7 palle became 6 palle and the design was somehow related to 3 virtues and Justice was missing.

This correspondence was too much for an accidental result. So it should have happened in May 1465. The whole 5x14 - theory developed from things, which looked only "not accidental".
The Minchiate detail was not known, the document of 1.1.1441 was not known, the 70 cards note was not known, the use of ludus triumphorum by Marcello was not known, it was not known, that the Michelino deck played a major role, but it was sure in the calculation, that the two artists production indicated the earlier existence of a 5x14-deck ... the calculation stated, with more than 99 % security.
All this other material had only the role of "further confirmation".

So ... it should be Ippolita's wedding and Lorenzo brought the cards.

It was a later identification, that the trio "Star - Moon - Sun" likely formed under the impression of the Benito Gozzoli paintings in the Medici chapel with 3 holy kings.
The 16 cards of Charles VI didn't include a star, so this choice happened later.

We see from the cards, that they likely were made in a haste and are not extremely worthwhile art. They were made in a sort of ad hoc decision ... it looks worthless to interpret too much in them. Lorenzo was a young man ...

The news about the new contracts between Louis XI and the Medici, which included the heraldic change with a reducement from 7 to 6 palle and with the inclusion of the French Lille, likely weren't known to Lorenzo, when he started his journey to Milan.
He stayed too long in Ferrara ... father Pietro wrote an embarrassed letter, that he lost time. In Ferrara it was known, how Milanese cards were made. Perhaps Lorenzo stayed too long, cause the cards were made.

Well, it were only cards, actually not "SOOOO IMPORTANT". Just a funny idea of a young man.

The meeting in Milan got its importance, and the resulting friendship Galeazzo and Lorenzo became important, as soon after 1465 both became the leaders of two states ... but if Pietro di Medici or Francesco Sforza both had reigned a little longer or some other activity had hindered one of both to become the regent ... I doubt, that this six cards would have gotten the role, that they got.

And if, for instance, mankind wouldn't have become a little bit crazy about the Tarot, they were ... if they still would exist ... just a little bit curious ... :-)

************

Anyway, I observed these days an interesting detail.

Hercules had been Medici topic ... before 1465. Young Lorenzo loved adventure stories, "Hercules" is an adventure story.
So he transformed the virtue Fortitudo in a Hercules, a not impossible, but some unusual idea ... is it really Hercules?

Actually it's the baton, which makes Heracles as explanation plausible, less the lion.

Image


The following is named "Commodus as Heracles". It's the baton, which makes it to Heracles, the lion skin, difficult to present for an artist and difficult to identify, is only second attribute.

Image


In the next picture the baton hangs senseless in the air - just very similar to suit symbols on playing cards. It signifies: this is Heracles.

Image


The story tells, that Heracles wrestles with the lion ... so most pictures show a wrestling fight, older antique pictures often don't show the baton.
But in this case, 17th century, Heracles beats with the baton.
Image


Mostly Heracles is nude ... but here at the next picture and that's from ca. 1410-1420, we see, that Heracles is dressed and also we see, that the imagination of his baton is quite different.

Image


It seems, that nudity created problems around 1410-1420 and it seems, that these problems still weren't overcome in ca. 1465, when the playing card was painted. At the playing card the form of the baton had been restaurated to the old form ... likely thanks to some archeological findings or other better informed art.

Very interesting in this context is the star picture ceiling at the salla della mappamondo in Caprarola. That's the building, an early "Pentagon":

Image


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_Farnese

The ceiling in total looks like this:



I hope, you can identify the Herakles, which is nude and kneeling demonstrates his raised baton.

I hope you can also identify the lion in some distance ... and I hope, you can identify, that it is painted similar stupid as the lion on the card, so as if the artist of the ceiling had been followed "somehow" the earlier Trionfi card.

The ceiling was painted around 1570.

This is a large photo ..
http://commondatastorage.googleapis.com ... 027425.jpg
... but the view is not much better.

Ah, here is one ...

Image


Well, here we have a sort of starting point for the development of star picture catalogs, the printed Hyginus from 1482. Later star pictures shows seem to have depenent on this production:

http://hsci.ou.edu/galleries//02LateAnc ... inus/1482/
Other edition
http://win.xiulong.it/astronomia/Poetic ... /index.htm

You can identify Hercules, who is nude with baton and lion skin - as in the Villa Farnese.
The picture of the lion is better and less stupid, but if you compare the other animals ... for instance Canis minor ...

Image


... then you see, that there seems to be the trend to present the animals in a "jumping position" (which actually makes the lion of the Farnese villa look similar stupid as the lion on the Tarot card).

Well, we don't know (or at least I don't know), if the Hyginus edition followed an older source with his pictures. Wiki says, there was an older edition of Ferrara 1475, but likely this had no pictures, I would assume, as the combination of woodcut pictures and printed books started later.
The explanation says, that Ratdolt, the printer, ordered the woodcuts. It isn't really "great art". The artist might have taken his ideas from "everywhere", just stealing a little bit here and there.

We have a "star pictures as ceiling" attempt in the Villa Roccabianca 1464, but the lion there definitely is different.

Image


See "Leone" at the upper right ... at least the pictures have no fear cause some nudity.

The text of the Hyginus edition is translated ...
http://www.theoi.com/Text/HyginusAstronomica.html

************

Well, we have six added pictures in the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo-Tarocchi .... according the expanded 5x14-theory the 6 pictures were (likely) added in 1465.
The Roccabianca ceiling was made 1464, the wife of the commissioner was an earlier girlfriend of Bianca Maria Visconti (who - very likely - commissioned the 5x14 Bembo cards).
The girl-friend was a lady-in-waiting for Bianca Maria, who became involved in a scandalous love story with the man ...

http://www.storiadimilano.it/Personaggi ... ia%20Rossi

The Roccabianca also knows a fresco with a playing card scene, published by Kaplan.

**********
Regiomontanus had come to Italy in 1461 ... this collided with a causal connected increasing general interest in astronomical topics, especially in Ferrara, where it escalated to the Manilius frescoes in the Palazzo Schifanoia (the painting work started 1469). The Sforza ordered the De Sfera manuscript around 1470. In Florence there are engravings of the children of the planets, which are - with doubts - given to 1462.

If one assumes, that the motif Herakles + Lion jumped from an earlier lost (really lost ?) star picture catalog in the playing card construction with the background idea, that "Herakles made the star pictures and the whole system", then the composition ...

Herakles as astronom
Sun
Moon
Star

... makes sense in itself. Then the question is there, what the other cards Temperance and "two putti with city picture" (interpreted as "world" nowadays) shall mean in this context?

Well, Temperance would make the idea of the "milky way". Actually in myth Heracles is involved in the production of the milky way ... read Hyginus.
II.43 MILKY WAY

There is a certain circular figure among the constellations, white in color, which some have called the Milky Way. Eratosthenes says that Juno, without realizing it, gave milk to the infant Mercury, but when she learned that he was the son of Maia, she thrust him away, and the whiteness of the flowing milk appears among the constellations.

Others have said that Hercules was given to Juno to nurse when she slept. When she awoke, it happened as described above. Others, again, say that Hercules was so greedy that he couldn’t hold in his mouth all the milk he had sucked, and the Milky Way spilled over from his mouth.

Still others say that at the time Ops brought to Saturn the stone, pretending it was a child, he bade her offer milk to it; when she pressed her breast, the milk that was caused to flow formed the circle which we mentioned above.
Then there are two putti left, who carry a shield ... the holy Jerusalem or perhaps Sforzinda, whatever.

Nobody can say, that this was a great idea, if it was the idea ... .-) ... but somehow it has written history ...

**********

... .-) ... I didn't found anybody, who identified Temperance earlier with milky way, but if I consider a young man with some erotic ideas, that's not impossible.

Herakles as astronom
Temperance as milky way
star as star
moon as moon
sun as sun
world with two putti angels showing the city Jerusalem in heaven

... could make a concept of heaven, but this Temperance looks so boring, that it seems really a strange idea.

But ... actually there's an earlier star picture heaven painted (possibly) by Alberti (this story appears in the speculations around the "Man of China" 1433 in Florence)

http://www.gavinmenzies.net/pages/evide ... denceID=11

A picture is here, but I've seen better in the web.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt ... 29,r:2,s:0

The picture is in "San Lorenzo" in Florence, that's the church with Medici chapels and a lot of family members are buried there.
It's natural, that "San Lorenzo" played a big role for somebody, whose name was "Lorenzo de Medici". He saw these pictures likely since his youth.

Lorenzo knew Albert already as boy and naturally similar he knew Toscanelli, who worked for the Medici. And naturally he could ask them about the star pictures.

*******

Perhaps Temperantia looks so boring, cause somebody loved the double-interpretation effect.
Last edited by Huck on 10 Oct 2010, 10:57, edited 1 time in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Virgil - 4 Eclogue - pmb

8
Oh well, you know me Marcos, Huck, et al., not the greatest proponent of new theories, however I very much enjoyed the language in that snippet of Virgil.

Isn't this gorgeous?:

"...and the majestic roll
Of circling centuries begins anew"


No wonder he ended up in Limbo instead of Hell.

Let's all say that again..."and the majestic roll of circling centuries begins anew." There is something about the alliteration there that feels like one is saying something very fine indeed.

I'm going to have to download a file of the Eclogues to play around with. Bless you my son, I can retire to bed in a happy frame of mind at 11:03 p.m., having happened upon this land of enchantment while browsing.

Re: Virgil - 4 Eclogue - pmb

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Huck wrote: ... :-) ... do you forget Ippolita in 1465 ...
Yes, its true... but i dont know if the PMB deck should have ended in Naples if it had been a gift for her wedding.
A name change signals "change", especially in the case of Minchiate, cause later the Minchiate has much more trumps than the usual Tarot. So the change should have happened between 1463 and 1466.
Yes, its true.
So ... it should be Ippolita's wedding and Lorenzo brought the cards.
Sorry, I am not sure. I need more documents. I think you are all right overall. But its not sure it was precisely this event, this marriage, which introduced the 6 cards.
Lorenzo was a young man ...
Well... I am not sure the deck is designed by Lorenzo. It can be designed by Pulci or Lucrezia Tornabuoni or... We need, again, more documents. In any case, I think young Lorenzo are more learned than many adults of their time (and current).
He stayed too long in Ferrara ... father Pietro wrote an embarrassed letter, that he lost time. In Ferrara it was known, how Milanese cards were made. Perhaps Lorenzo stayed too long, cause the cards were made.
Perhaps... or perhaps because, as usually, there were many parties to please the guest, as did Bianca and Galeazzo Maria, you know. We need a exactly document about it.
Well, it were only cards, actually not "SOOOO IMPORTANT". Just a funny idea of a young man.
Yes, its true... But we need think too the humor in the Renaissance is very sophisticated. Momo its funny, but sophisticated.
I doubt, that this six cards would have gotten the role, that they got.

And if, for instance, mankind wouldn't have become a little bit crazy about the Tarot, they were ... if they still would exist ... just a little bit curious ... :-)
I dont understand this, sorry.

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Anyway, I observed these days an interesting detail...
Thanks for development. I need to study it calmly, then I can respond.

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No wonder he ended up in Limbo instead of Hell.
Exactly!!!!!!!!! :) :) :)

It was for this domain literature Virgil, during the Middle Ages, became St. Virgilio. As you know, there is a very good book about this process:

Vergil in the Middle Ages. Domenico Comparetti

http://books.google.es/books?id=JPQeB6K ... &q&f=false
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Virgil - 4 Eclogue - pmb

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I am responding to your previous post.

I don't disagree with most of what you say, mmfilesi.

A few fine points:

I wonder whether the eight-pointed star was peculiar to the Star of Bethlehem, or was just a way of representing stars. It's that way on the church, so let's do it that way on the card, somebody says. The star on the card seems to be heading toward her womb; and if it were the Star of Bethlehem, she'd either be a lot more pregnant or have already given birth. But it does suggest Bethlehem, up there in the sky.

I think it is relevant--because the French cards show more similarities to the PMB than to the cards of other cities--that the Noblet Star-lady has a star on her navel. That corresponds to the big star in the sky. I think both are Jesus, one in Mary's womb and the other in heaven, both before the incarnation and as the "bright morning star of Revelation." The composite below is from my old blog (http://22invocationsofdionysus.blogspot ... d-sun.html, if you insist).

Image


In the Dodal, the star gets changed to an eye. They may have known by then of the "eye of Horus," of the parallel myth of the savior Horus in the womb of Isis--intentional Egyptianizing. Or else they were borrowing from the illustrated books of "hieroglyphs," in which the eye was considered a hieroglyph for God. The Renaissance quoted the Greco-Roman sources about Egypt for this (for the eye, Macrobius and Plutarch), and the illustrators, reprinted often, followed (Wind, Pagan Mysteries of the Renaissance, p. 232 and fig. 84-85, from the 1551 Paris Hieroglyphica of Horapollo).

Image


In the Conver, as far as I can tell, all we have on her belly is a navel, and otherwise meaningless marks.

I think the Noblet and Dodal support your idea of the Moon lady as the pregnant Virgin.

2. mmfilesi wrote
I think that melancholic is associated with Saturn, not whit the moon.
Luna was associated with madness. Besides psychosis, there is also mania and depression, with or without voices or visions. Melancholia as depression is one form of madness, corresponding to the new moon. Then in the full moon, we get mania (as people who work with mental health patients seem to notice): it is the bipolar cycle of depression and mania.

Saturn was associated with melancholia, too--and also with divine serenity and wisdom. Different planets were associated with different forms of madness (and virtue). Madness per se, with its ups and downs, is governed by Luna. Luna is the ruler of the dark times, the Queen of the Night.

On the right below is the Moon card I think derives from the PMB--or at least the PMB is closest to it of any of the early cards--called "15th or 16th century" and "Italian" by Kaplan (Vol 2, p. 2740. Since they ended up in Budapest, it is probably from the most Budapest-connected part of Italy, Milan and points east. She, too, looks sad, as indicated by her downcast look.

Image


A final consideration is the cliff. Looking at many examples of cliffs at bottoms of 14th and 15th century illuminations, before 1465, the subject above tends to be one of peril or death. (viewtopic.php?f=12&t=426&p=6626&hilit=cliff#p6314) These 2nd artist cards are all in the so-called "eternity" section of the sequence. First artist cards with cliffs are Fool, Bagatto, Love, Wheel, Hanged Man, and Death, if I recall. A few others are in such bad condition on the bottom it is hard to say one way or the other.

3. Of the various marriages you suggest, the one with Bona is the only one of sufficient importance in Milan (and also, to be sure, Ippolite's). But the PMB lady doesn't look like Bona, as we know from the "Apollo and Daphne" painting, from the visit to Florence, if nowhere else (another place is the "Sforza Hours" probably done for her 1480s-1490s). The PMB lady looks like the middle girl, in a Lombard altarpiece c. 1480, in a group of three, where the others look more like known portraits of Bona and Ippolite (the latter also in a book of hours). I don't have any other candidates for who it is in that altarpiece except Elisabetta, who was with Bona and Ippolite at Galeazzo's wedding. I have posted that detail at(viewtopic.php?f=11&t=365&p=4912&hilit=E ... 0%A6#p4912). Elisabetta's memorial service in 1472 was a big thing.

I am glad to see that you will consider a date later than 1465 for the added cards.