The Order of The Stick

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The Order of the Stick (OOTS) is a comic that celebrates and satirizes tabletop role-playing games and medieval fantasy through the ongoing tale of the eponymous fellowship of heroes.
Taking place in a magical world that loosely operates by 'the rule' of Dungeons and Dragons, the comic follows the sometimes farcical exploits of six flawed adventurers as they strive to save the world from an evil lich.
In considering the cards we call the Magician/Popesse/Empress/Emperor/Pope of the Visconti PMB
I tried to find a connection outside the usual.
I looked first at the idea that the Emperor might be considered to be Sigismund the Emperor and his second wife Barbara of Celji. Apart from the physical resemblance, one connection with Francesco Sforza is the Order of the Dragon. Sigismund and Barbara wrote “The Rule” of this Order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Dragon
If it is considered that the Popesse is Saint Clare and that this is a Babessa rather than a Papessa- that is an Abbess, you will find that Saint Clare wrote “The Rule” of her Order or congregation of Nuns.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clare_of_Assisi
If you look for a reason that the Pope card might be a dichotomy of the Popesse, then you look directly at Saint Benedict who wrote “The Rule” for monastic orders , especially the Cluniac orders- or white Monks like Cistercian, Carthusians and other Monastic Orders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_of_Nursia

Now what if The Magician Card is Francesco Sforza and there he holds a pen in his hand?
What possible connection does this have with ‘Orders’ and ‘Rules’ ?

In Medieval times there were many ‘Orders’ some famous, some less so. Knighthood was an interwoven group that consisted of Monastic Orders, Military Orders, Religious Orders, Monarchical Orders, Confraternity and Fraternal Orders and Ceremonial Orders, plus Chivalric Orders. They all had at their core the idea "Protect the weak, defenseless, helpless, and fight for the general welfare of all". They also had the general concept of Faith, Loyalty, Courage and Honour. Mainly for Medieval men, there were three main employments- the Church, the Military or Commerce. Orders were the big networking theme within and without the Church.
So you have a sort of chain- the Order of the Templars- when annihilated went to the Order of the Sword- from there to the Order of the Fleur de Lys or the Order of the Crescent. In each area of Italy
There were Orders. In Naples and Sicily you have the The Order of the Ship for example.
There is a manuscript called ‘Concessione di Francesco Sforza alla Certosa di Pavia 1450’ that has the symbol of the Green Dragon above and around the Milan Serpent with the red man in it’s mouth. It thereby recognizes his membership of The Order of The Dragon.
http://www.webexhibits.org/pigments/int ... scopy.html
Scroll down to manuscript. It also explains other Visconti cards with Snake and Sword etc.

In 1445 he is shown as a member of the Order of Compagnie des Gerdames Ecossois. Each Order was modeled in Rule on another Order. The Order of the Dragon was modeled on the Order of Saint George of 1318 which Sforza’s father belonged to. Sigismund was also influenced by the Order of the Ship (Naples Order). They each had a motto.
The Poor Clare’s motto was that of Saint Benedict “Work and Prayer” and “Peace”(from Saint Francis)
Now when Francesco was in Milan he appears to be involved with The Order of the Node/Knot whose other common name was The Order of Holy Spirit and Desire to Right. It’s symbol was the Dove with radiating lines. It appears that he wrote ‘The Rule’ to Chevaliers de la Compagnie du Saint Esperit au Droit Desir 'Knights of the Company of the Holy Spirit of Right Desire'.( Cosimo d'Medeci belonged to the Order of the Golden Fleece and an Order of the Hat)
This order had Prayer, work, community, Virtue and Service at it’s heart and the Node which symbolized Unity. These Orders had an objective and it seems that Francesco Sforza’s objective was to build Church, Monastery, and Hospitals. The Hospitals he built were the the Magna Domus Hospitalis (Ca' Granda), a hospital dedicated to Annunciata (a municipality of the province of Brescia, Northern Italy). He did this primarily to gain the affection of its people who were followers of the Visconti family of Milan. He formed a charitable Order of the Annuciation and built the Ospedale Maggiore. He was involved in the cloister of Chiaravale the Home of the Cistercians and the Certosa of Pavia the Carthusians. He planned the Cloister of Abbiatgrasse, but his son built it. He built the Castle Sforza and here like all the others you see the Dove and radiating lines and the motto ‘Bon Droit’ which belonged to Visconti to start with. Chiaravalle has the Knot around it’s coloumns, Pavia has the Snake, Cremona has the Dove and other symbols of Francesca. Each order has founding members, a Rule, a Motto and symbols- a charter if you will. Live a Christian life, be Virtuous and gain your right to Heaven here on Earth. Looks just like The World Card.
Now we have The Order of The Tarot /:)
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Order of The Stick

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Some associations with the Idea of Orders.

If you broke your Vows either in a secular, monastic, or Military Order this was what was thought...
Renouncing the Vow/Rule was pronounced turning to the company of the lost, to the lion’s mouth, and to the realm of blackness and death
Monastic Orders- History of the Christian Church
Orders of chivalry first appear in the context of Western Europe's military activities against non-Christian populations and states. Starting in the 11th century, Western Europe went into an aggressive expansionary phase, leading it into conflict with non-Christian populations on two fronts: in Spain and in the Middle East. These wars were engaged in for a variety of motives, but they were, at least in some respects, religious wars. The first orders of chivalry inherit this dual aspect, religious and military.

The first orders of chivalry were associations of individuals, committing themselves to certain goals and regulated activities. The commitment typically took the form of vows, and the regulation of activities took the form of a Rule and an institutional structure defined by statutes and managed by officers. Thus, orders of chivalry were religious orders, in the same sense that purely religious or monastic orders were created at the same time (Carthusians, Cistercians, Franciscans, Dominicans, etc). The goals were both the sanctification of their members through their devotional and charitable activities, as well as participation in the fight against the "Infidels", either by protecting pilgrims or actively taking part in defensive or offensive military operations.
Guy Sainty

~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Order of The Stick

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In regards to the Four Papi of Card Decks- it is worth mentioning two factors that may have influence.
Four monks of Cluny became popes: Gregory VII, Urban II, Paschal II and Urban V.
In the Constitution of Cluniacs- it was required that Four Abbots went and inspected the Orders around Europe.
They each had an area of Influence. This was considered their Pastoral Role- shepherding the Souls, the meaning of Pastoral work.

~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Order of The Stick

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Hi Huck -it would have helped if I had spelled it correctly- Compagnie des Gendames Ecossois.
An independent Military Order created by Rene d'Anjou whose founders were Cosimo d'Medeci, The Grand Duke of Tuscany and John de Montgomery (Scot = Ecossois) whose Motto was "Honour, Duty, Truth and Justice. We believe in Honour above self, Duty above wealth, Justice above the law and Truth above all." The symbol was the Cross fleurette (Surprisingly on the Cary Yale Coins) The Constitution was that of the Order Du Lys and they fought in Serbia returning Brankovich to the Throne. When Rene d'Anjou died Francesco Sforza took over the Order.
It, like most orders that survive today is a charitable Order. It is believed that the Sforza Castle is modelled on the Templar/Crusader fortifications?
Quite fascinating this subject- well to me anyway :-B Looks more and more like Tarot at every turn.....Early fund raising device :-$
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Order of The Stick

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oops I meant to add- it was the Cluniac Monks that took Gothic Architecture to Italy, along with many manuscripts that formed basis for the Ficino group at the Academy (from the Cluny Monastery in France)
I must admit I am a bit sick of reading about Battles/War/Death in all these books about the subject. :ymsick:
Medieval Monasticism yikes!! What an amazing network it formed though- almost makes one think Tarot is a code or secret Handshake :p

~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Order of The Stick

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Lorredan wrote:Hi Huck -it would have helped if I had spelled it correctly- Compagnie des Gendames Ecossois.
An independent Military Order created by Rene d'Anjou whose founders were Cosimo d'Medeci, The Grand Duke of Tuscany and John de Montgomery (Scot = Ecossois) whose Motto was "Honour, Duty, Truth and Justice. We believe in Honour above self, Duty above wealth, Justice above the law and Truth above all." The symbol was the Cross fleurette (Surprisingly on the Cary Yale Coins) The Constitution was that of the Order Du Lys and they fought in Serbia returning Brankovich to the Throne. When Rene d'Anjou died Francesco Sforza took over the Order.
It, like most orders that survive today is a charitable Order. It is believed that the Sforza Castle is modelled on the Templar/Crusader fortifications?
Quite fascinating this subject- well to me anyway :-B Looks more and more like Tarot at every turn.....Early fund raising device :-$
~Lorredan
The grand duke of Tuscany had been of 16th century, not 15th like the Francesco Sforza we talk about. Possibly you speak of Cosimo Medici the Elder and the banker.
A Scottish troop fought for the French against the English during the 100-years war ... possibly in this context Renee d'Anjou arranged an association. They had a greyhound in their heraldic, a greyhound appeared in the personal signs of Francesco Sforza.
Who told this story?

*******************
I found this:
In 1425 Charles VII of France created an elite bodyguard of Scots consisting of two sub-divisions: a) ‘Garde du Roi’ - b) ‘Garde de Corps du Roi’(4). However there were still a great number of Scots gentlemen who could not be accommodated in the Scots guards, as these two divisions were collectively known, and this group formed themselves into what amounted to an independent mercenary company called ‘Compagnie des gentilhommes Ecossais’ and wore a Fleur de Lys on their left breast to show that they owed allegiance to the King of France. Although the overall contingent was known by this name it was formed from five individual companies. The first company under the direct command of John de Montgomery consisted of 72 men-at-arms and 27 archers. The second company under Rankin Kennedy consisted of 47 men-at-arms and 3 guisarmers. The third company under David Haliday consisited of 21 men-at-arms, 59 archers and 7 guisarmers. The fourth company under Alan Forley was composed of 35 men-at-arm and 8 guisarmers and the fifth company under Alexander Seton consisted of 11 men-at-arm and and 12 archers these latter from the bodyguard of the King of France as per letter dated 7th January 1435. This contingent helped Rene d’Anjou to regain the Kingdom of Naples and for this, were granted recognition in the form of a Document by Rene in which Rene used the term ‘Ordre du Lys’. The Order’s badge now became a cross fleury outlined in gold or yellow with a fleur de lys at its centre (See: The Constitution of the Order). The obverse of Rene’s Great Seal on the rear page of the Constitution of the Order shows the original cross fleury of the Order, which is slightly different from its present day descendent being in fact a cross fleurette. Rene’s private Chapel in the Castle in Angers became the chapel of the Order and you can still see the cross fleurys in a circle around the chapel though sadly the gold leaf has faded.

The Scots Mercenary Companies were not always welcomed by the French themselves. It is recorded that a particular French nobleman tried to put down a Montgomery member of the Order on the grounds that he, the noblemen, fought for honour whilst the Order fought for money. ‘Yes’ replied Montgomery ‘We all fight to gain that which we don’t have’. One of the nicer ‘put downs’ of history I’ve always thought.

In his fight to gain the Kingdom of Naples, Rene had been supported by Cosimo de Medici the elder, whose descendants became Dukes of Florence and later Grand Dukes of Tuscany as well as John de Montgomery, mentioned above, one of the great military leaders of his day. (See “Revue Cantonale” de Livarot, op. cit). These three became the ‘Founders’ of the Order and the Sovereign Grand Commandership of the Order is restricted to the descendants of those three plus the Sforza family. Sforza had later commanded Rene’s forces, which had included a large number of Scots mercenaries, against the Aragonese contender for the throne of Naples. Alfonso’s forces were however successful and in 1442 Alfonso of Aragon was proclaimed King of Naples and Sicily. Apart from the Sforzas, the latest Constitution of the Order added two more families, who qualified by collateral marriage, to the list of Families entitled to become Sovereign Grand Commanders. The reason for calling the Order, the ‘Order of the Lily’ becomes immediately apparent, when one considers that the Fleur-de-Lys was the emblem of the Montgomerys in Scotland, Rene as a member of the French Royal House had the Fleur-de-Lys as part of his Coat of Arms and another form of the Fleur-de-Lys was the emblem of Florence of the Medicis.

In 1445 Charles VII created what amounted to a standing Army of 15 ‘Compagnies d’ordannance’ of 600 men each, amongst which, was the ‘Compagnie des Gendarmes Ecossois’. This company enjoyed pride of place in the French Army with its commander being given the title ‘Premier Master of Camp of French Cavalry’ and the company having the right to pass first in revue (5).

One therefore had two groups of Scots with slightly different allegiances. On the one hand, the ‘Scots guards and Compagnie des Gendarmes Ecossois’, who owed allegiance to the King and on the other the ‘Ordre du Lys and Compagnie des gentilhommes Ecossais’, who owed allegiance to the house of Anjou. I suspect however that the Scots Mercenary Companies were not particularly worried about their theoretical allegiance but would take service with whoever was willing to pay them and in reality the oath that they took was to their company commander and the Sovereign head of the Order. In 1445 John de Montgomery was killed and Rene appointed Francisco Sforza, to be the Commander of the remainder of the Compagnie, who at that time were acting as mercenaries for Sforza, now Duke of Milan with money provided by Cosimo de Medici. At this time too the enmity between the two branches of the French royal family started to turn murderous. Later, because of the death of Rene’s two sons, probably from poisoning by the House of Valois, Fco. Sforza would become head of the Order as well, until Rene’s grandson, Rene de Lorraine, could take over. Fco. had started life as head of a mercenary company and it is likely that the two groups either merged or at least worked together under one leader.
http://www.orderofthefleurdelys.org/history.html

A few parts look a little bit constructed.

Renee founded a knight order, order of the crescent, which had 29 members. Francesco Sforza was a member and also Jacopo Antonio Marcello. Likely this happended between 1450 -1452, before new war broke out between Venice and Milan. In 1453 Renee in person and Francesco Sforza fought together against Venetian interests. This didn't work very well. Later around 1460 Sforza engaged against the interests of the house of Anjou in the conflict of Naples, also there were activities around Genova, where Renee d'Anjou lost a horrible battle ... against Milanese interests. Sforza had Genova finally.
... :-) ... there seem to be romantic tendencies in the article.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Order of The Stick

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Hi Huck thanks for that- but that is not where I got my information from.
Here is a sample on my desk at the moment.
The Monks of War: Desmond Senar %%-
Warriors of the Lord : David Nicolle
Angels in Iron : Nicholas Prata
The Age of the Cloister: C Nugent %%- %%-
Western Monasticism: Peter King %%-
History of the Western Church:Catholic Encyclopedia %%- %%-
Christian Monasticism: Knowles %%-
From Monastery to Hospital: Andrew Crislip %%-
Chivalry: Maurice Keen
Maxims of Christian Chivalry:K Digby
Helmet and Cowl by Letts 1918 The Best yet and where I got the Info in the main from. %%- %%- %%-
So I do read about the subject Huck.
I just do not like to sit here typing out paragraphs from Books as Quotes.I just have this need to own Amazon.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Order of The Stick

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OK I have checked the Names.....
Rene d'Anjou's Orders did go to Francesco the 2nd- Francesco Sforza'a Grandson- as well as the Order of the Lily in 1480.
The Compagnie des Gendames Ecossois was our Francesco and Bianca's Order, the offshoot of the Order of the Gendames Ecossois of Rene d'Anjou. This appears to be the one the Francesco the 1st wrote the Rule to. As did he write the Order of the Annunciation for the charitable Hospital building in Milan, and the Building of the Castle in Milan. One founding member was Cosimo de'Medici (1389-1464) Francesco the 1st's friend and supporter.
I cannot find who the other founding members were.
Most information was from Boulton.
~Lorredan

*Boulton, D'Arcy Jonathan Dacre: The knights of the crown : the monarchical orders of knighthood in later medieval Europe, 1325-1520. Woodbridge, Suffolk : Boydell Press, 1987. Second revised edition (paperback): Woodbridge, Suffolk and Rochester, NY : Boydell Press, 2000.
Excellent and thorough work by an academic historian. (From Wikipedia) I have 1987 Hardcover.
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: The Order of The Stick

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Well, I haven't so much reading about the orders ... but my general impression had been, that knight orders had been more a Northern than an Italian scheme. Italy had a condottieri culture ... a result of the condition, that Italy had much bigger cities. My impression had been that Italy took the idea of the knight orders from outside (as many other ideas) and what they did take, that was simply not the same.

I think, there is an easy reason, why Northern cities stayed small in comparison to the much larger cities in Italy: it's cold in winter and you need some wood to survive ... in the North. If the city becomes too big, too much wood is used and you get a problem with transport. The near forests suffer too much, so you have to keep a balance between population and near enough forests to keep the city surviving.
In Italy the problem of warm feet in winter wasn't so urgent. So cities could develop easier. Commerce and trade had better chances. The cities bought their "knights", they got contracts, what they had to do. If the knights weren't bought, they became robbers - and this wasn't good for the business.

In the North you could win some favor and political and military force of the nobility with some idealism, festivities and some tournaments. This didn't really work in the mercantile South - people had more bad experiences, or, in other words, were less blue-eyed. So you've funny ego-trips in Italy - everybody against everybody - and around 1300 the situation, that Italy is parted in about 300 mini-dominions, but the real rulers are the developing cities. This mini-dominions were diminished in bloody fights between themselves to some easier structures in 14th century - survival of the fittest, and as usual in such fights, the most murderous and in some sense worst were the winners. All this noble names Visconti, Malatesta, Este etc. ... each of them has very much blood at his hands and you can easily verify it, when you wander through their genealogical tables, very often there is killing in their own family. If people would do in their family such things nowadays, they clearly would be criminals, psychopaths and somebody for the couch of the psychiatrists, the negative side of society.

I would assume, that in 14th century they hadn't much knight orders, but as with other things, Italy started to blossom again, when the pope came back, and Italian started to miss something in all their growing wealth, honor, titles, European acceptance. So they imported customs from elsewhere, between also this idea of the knight orders.

... .-) ... without doubt there were religious orders. This was another part of Italian business.
Huck
http://trionfi.com