Hi friends!
As you know, in the ace of diamonds of Belgian Tarot says it was made in Switzerland. For example:
Of course, trionfi xD:
http://trionfi.com/m/d0yyyy.php%3fdecknr=2453
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Well... what do you think about it? They are decks made in Switzerland?
This is an important detail to resolve the enigmatic meaning of Captain Fracasse.
[About it, look at the interesting reflection of Ross, Robert and Steve]:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=69458
Re: A Swiss Belgian?
2It gets a bit meandering but there is also the thread on Nicolas Bodet, where I included some images in relation to the Bentveughels:mmfilesi wrote: This is an important detail to resolve the enigmatic meaning of Captain Fracasse.
[About it, look at the interesting reflection of Ross, Robert and Steve]:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=69458
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.ph ... entveughel
Re: A Swiss Belgian?
3Fantastic article, Steve. Thanks.
I love this picture
I love this picture
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)
Re: A Swiss Belgian?
4The roots of Captain Fracasso:
Terwijl Alva vrijt met de hoer van Babylon raakt de economie van het land in verval, ca. 1572.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File: ... en_003.jpg
Fernando Álvarez de Toledo y Pimentel :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_% ... ke_of_Alba
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)
Re: A Swiss Belgian?
5Hello,
Those Vandenborre's Tarots were made in Brussel.
As far as I remember we don't know of any such deck made in Switzerland.
Ross posted the link to Lasne's engraving ( http://expositions.bnf.fr/bosse/grand/104.htm ) a few years ago on aeclectic. There was also if I remember correctly again several discussion about the influence of Spain and how it may have been turned into a subject of cristicism in the Flandres and northeast France, more or less explaining this character. Depaulis proposed that the replacement of the popess and pope was similar to what happened with Besançon tarots.
The presence of the Capitaine Fracasse in the Brussel Tarot may look under those lights quite understandable, and his presence in the Hautot's Tarot may have the same sources ?
regards,
Bertrand
*edited : not Bosse, Lasne
Actually it doesn't say so : "Cartes de Suisse Fabriquées par F.I.Vandenborre Cartier a Bruxelles" translate to "Swiss cards made by F.I.Vandenborre Cardmaker in Brussels", so "Suisse" only determines the type of cards, as it could have been called "italian" such as the Tarots made in France in the XIXth century by Lequart and Grimaud.mmfilesi wrote:As you know, in the ace of diamonds of Belgian Tarot says it was made in Switzerland.
Those Vandenborre's Tarots were made in Brussel.
As far as I remember we don't know of any such deck made in Switzerland.
Ross posted the link to Lasne's engraving ( http://expositions.bnf.fr/bosse/grand/104.htm ) a few years ago on aeclectic. There was also if I remember correctly again several discussion about the influence of Spain and how it may have been turned into a subject of cristicism in the Flandres and northeast France, more or less explaining this character. Depaulis proposed that the replacement of the popess and pope was similar to what happened with Besançon tarots.
The presence of the Capitaine Fracasse in the Brussel Tarot may look under those lights quite understandable, and his presence in the Hautot's Tarot may have the same sources ?
regards,
Bertrand
*edited : not Bosse, Lasne
Re: A Swiss Belgian?
7a) Thanks Bertrand, now is more clear ... well... now we have a new problem:
+
b)
With this "Whore of Babylon-Pope and Duke of Alba kiss" I wanted to highlight the roots of the concept. That is, why the popes, the church, is replaced by a Spanish patetic soldier? In this picture, I think, the association is obvious.
Belgians invented the tarot Belgian or copied it -Fracasso and Bacus included- from a previous model Swiss?As far as I remember we don't know of any such deck made in Switzerland
+
b)
Yes, I know, thanks.Ross posted the link to Lasne's engraving
With this "Whore of Babylon-Pope and Duke of Alba kiss" I wanted to highlight the roots of the concept. That is, why the popes, the church, is replaced by a Spanish patetic soldier? In this picture, I think, the association is obvious.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)
Re: A Swiss Belgian?
8Duke of Alba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_% ... ke_of_Alba
had been from 1567 - 1573 in the Low countries
Pope Pius V. (1565 - 1st of May 1572)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_V
Pope Gregory XIII (1572 - 1585) ... strong association to the Spanish king, famous for calendar reform
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gregory_XIII
History of Belgia, English Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighty_Years%27_War
There is something like a discussion about a "black legend" ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend
... and "why Spaniards make good bad guys"
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article- ... -good.html
... whereby it is said in this article:
... http://www.cinemotions.com/modules/Film ... ml#affiche
... or in your next life you might become a playing card monster.
http://www.bushcards.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernando_% ... ke_of_Alba
had been from 1567 - 1573 in the Low countries
Pope Pius V. (1565 - 1st of May 1572)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_V
Pope Gregory XIII (1572 - 1585) ... strong association to the Spanish king, famous for calendar reform
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gregory_XIII
History of Belgia, English Wikipedia
The Terminus "eighty years war" makes the Alba appearance in the Netherlands to a forerunner of the "30 years war in Germany", which also ended 1648.The Eighty Years' War (1568–1648) divided the Low Countries into the northern United Provinces (Belgica Foederata in Latin, the "Federated Netherlands") and the Southern Netherlands (Belgica Regia, the "Royal Netherlands"). The latter were ruled successively by the Spanish and the Austrian Habsburgs and comprised most of modern Belgium. This was the theatre of most Franco-Spanish and Franco-Austrian wars during the 17th and 18th centuries.
Following the campaigns of 1794 in the French Revolutionary Wars, the Low Countries—including territories that were never nominally under Habsburg rule, such as the Prince-Bishopric of Liège—were annexed by the French First Republic, ending Austrian rule in the region. The reunification of the Low Countries as the United Kingdom of the Netherlands occurred at the dissolution of the First French Empire in 1815.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighty_Years%27_War
There is something like a discussion about a "black legend" ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend
... and "why Spaniards make good bad guys"
http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article- ... -good.html
... whereby it is said in this article:
Well, what we do learn from this? Don't attack somebody with a printing press ..."The Duke of Alba's actions in the United Provinces contributed to the Black Legend. Sent in August 1567 to stamp out heresy and political unrest in a part of Europe where printing presses were a constant source of heterodox opinion, one of Alba's first acts was to gain control of the book industry. In a single year, several printers were banished and at least one was executed. Book sellers and printers were raided in the search for banned books, many more of which were added to the Index Librorum Prohibitorum."
... http://www.cinemotions.com/modules/Film ... ml#affiche
... or in your next life you might become a playing card monster.
http://www.bushcards.com/
Huck
http://trionfi.com
http://trionfi.com
Re: A Swiss Belgian?
9+
It's funny the black legend. In fact, the Spanish made the same as other rulers ... but did not have good printers.
Today in Spain exist a pathetic movement historians (some of great level) revisionists. Seek to deny American genocide or the horrors of Flanders, and so on. Instead of learning from history, they want to rewrite it.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)
Re: A Swiss Belgian?
10Well, Spain had a dominant position during 16th century. US America had it in 20th century. Somehow natural, that dominant positions go hand in hand with some obvious crimes and form the base for some shame later, when the earlier dominance becomes only history.
As Lao Tse or Dschuang-Tse or one of the older Taoistic writer had it, "better to be the tortoise in the mud than the magical tortoise in the museum of the emperor".
I'm actually not so sure, if Galeazzo Maria Sforza had been more a victim of the early printing press or really this nasty little monster, as some historians have it. And if other "noble men", like Montefeltro and Lorenzo de Medici, winners of the printing press, hadn't their dark points.
As Lao Tse or Dschuang-Tse or one of the older Taoistic writer had it, "better to be the tortoise in the mud than the magical tortoise in the museum of the emperor".
I'm actually not so sure, if Galeazzo Maria Sforza had been more a victim of the early printing press or really this nasty little monster, as some historians have it. And if other "noble men", like Montefeltro and Lorenzo de Medici, winners of the printing press, hadn't their dark points.
Huck
http://trionfi.com
http://trionfi.com