Re: A Swiss Belgian?

11
Yes, the problem is that some Spanish historians are victims of a perverse nationalism and now they dont want see the black legend. (They are called "the defenders of the legend pink"). For example, they say the Indians were not killed by the Spanish soldiers, but by diseases (all), therefore, Spain has not moral debt whit the actual American Indian ... Well, it's the same old shit. Historiography influenced by spurious interests.

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As Lao Tse or Dschuang-Tse or one of the older Taoistic writer had it, "better to be the tortoise in the mud than the magical tortoise in the museum of the emperor"
I love it !!!!!!!!

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I'm actually not so sure, if Galeazzo Maria Sforza had been more a victim of the early printing press or really this nasty little monster, as some historians have it.
YES! I've been thinking about this case, but I still dont know. I need investigate more about it.

And if other "noble men", like Montefeltro and Lorenzo de Medici, winners of the printing press, hadn't their dark points.
:) ... We cant forget the Medici killed a democratic system... Well, this is one big dark point in my opninion.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: A Swiss Belgian?

12
mmfilesi wrote:Belgians invented the tarot Belgian or copied it -Fracasso and Bacus included- from a previous model Swiss?
The model must have been italian, but Fracasso and Bacchus must be local variants.

Those variants may have originated in Belgium, France (Hautot ?) or elsewhere ? Based on a sort of bolognese pattern similar to the Vieville's model or simply based on Vieville or both ? Here again there are many missing pieces to the puzzle.

The IPCS has a page on this pattern http://i-p-c-s.org/pattern/ps-19.html as well as Tarotpedia, but neither mention this same pattern (with Fracasse, Bacchus, Foudre, etc...) was also found in France in Rouen at a similar period.

Regarding revisionism on spanish-american history, how could the junta de Valladolid and the Leyes Nuevas fit in a story where the native americans would have been well treated ?

Bertrand

Re: A Swiss Belgian?

13
but Fracasso and Bacchus must be local variants.
I need investigate more about it, but I hope it, because the Steven theory of Schildersbent its really fun.

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Regarding revisionism on spanish-american history, how could the junta de Valladolid and the Leyes Nuevas fit in a story where the native americans would have been well treated ?
Well... now the Spanish historians are at war. One side (legend pink) say that the Indians died from disease, that the "encomenderos" were not interested in the land, but in the labor force and who cared much for the Indians (sic). They also say, in some areas, such as Bolivia or Guatema, not many Indians were killed... and when they died was because of other Indians (as Tlaxcaltecas).

Others argue that the harsh working conditions (slave) were those that allowed these diseases and, of course, tried to eliminate all the native culture.

In 1992, Governments held the V Centenary of "discovery." Nobody talked about the Indians of today, who are still persecuted in many Latin American countries like Guatemala or Brazil :( .
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: A Swiss Belgian?

14
I would think, that Captain Fracasse simply followed the broad Northern tradition King (= Emperor) - Queen (=Empress) - Ober (= Captain Fracasse)- Unter (Bateleur), just referring (back) to the general numbers which were used in card play.
Ober and Unter often developed somehow Don Quixotte - Sancho Panza style, if the designer had some funny humor.

Wiki offers this picture as "Captain Fracasse" as an engraving of ca. 1630 by Abraham Bosse, a painter in Paris (not Italy, not from Spain)

Image


Well, might be, it was earlier made and later taken as "Fracasse"

It reappears here as Captain (Commedia dell Arte)
http://nuke.cosebelleitalia.com/Captain ... fault.aspx

Though, Fracasse had a big nose.

Otherwise it seems difficult to find an old Captain Fracasse, known from Commedia dell'arte ...

Image
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: A Swiss Belgian?

16
Well, as I already told, there was "Fracasse" Sanseverino, who was an ugly brother of the tournament star Roberto Sanseverino, who wasn't a good choice as a leading general, which was realized too late by Lodovico Sforza, but a knight of the salons, though splendid at the tournaments and good looking a talk to the people. By contrast this "Fracasse" (whose real name was different) might have been popular, too, though in negative tendency.

His biography is not boring ... I speculated, that this Fracasse became indirectly the prototype for the "Spanish Fracasse" later.
See above in this thread for the link. ... ah,
here it is:
About Fracasse ...
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=487&p=6357

The Commedia dell'arte figure might have developed possibly around 1550, but there was not only one crazy soldier.
Huck
http://trionfi.com