Re: The tarot and the tarasque...

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1) Interesting bock (I am not read yet): Coursos dé la Tarasquo et jocs founda per lou rey Réné, avec une sér. Joseph Desanat. (Go to pag. 59)

2) At least in the triumph of tarasque in Spain, here is a fool.

J. Moraleda y Esteban. Fiestas Toledanas (1894):

...the two smaller ones, voluminous head, two clowns, and the beast of Revelation-Tarascan- with a lady in the back, which the people called Anne Boleyn [as the babilonic prostitute: According to Caro Baroja, the Tarascan represents heresy overcome by faith (...), being like a beast of Revelation with Anne Boleyn in the form of wrist mounted above restless, because the woman driving the Anglican schism between Henry VIII and Catholics. This figure is known as "tarasquilla" and is a clear allusion to feelings that must be disposed as greed and pride.].

“De antiguo, en Toledo y en otras poblaciones, viene la costumbre de utilizar para todo festejo público las enormes figuras de pasta y telas nominadas gigantones, gigantillas y tarasca. Los que en nuestra ciudad existían eran todas figuras alegóricas de escaso mérito artístico, por lo que se substituyeron en 1755 con los que hoy se conservan, que representan, los mayores, las cuatro partes del mundo ofreciendo al Creador los frutos de los respectivos países, y el Cid Rui Díaz; los dos más pequeños, de cabeza voluminosa, dos bufones, y la bestia del Apocalipsis –vulgo tarasca- con una dama en el lomo, a la que el pueblo llama Ana Bolena.”


3) Some spanish tarasques:
madrid_tarasca_1623.jpg madrid_tarasca_1623.jpg Viewed 17227 times 196.11 KiB
Corpus de Madrid de 1623.
tar1.jpg tar1.jpg Viewed 17227 times 27.99 KiB
tar2.jpg tar2.jpg Viewed 17227 times 32.75 KiB
Corpus de Madrid de 1663.
madrid_tarasca_1685-2.jpg madrid_tarasca_1685-2.jpg Viewed 17227 times 206.96 KiB
Madrid, 1685
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The tarot and the tarasque...

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Well, it's late and I haven't done the relevant library research. Four issues:

1. The word "tarocchi" or "taraux" would logically be something that describes the whole game, not just one card, unless it is a particularly critical card, like the King in chess, i.e. "dungeons and dragons," or "hearts," etc. The Devil card doesn't play a very crucial part in the game.

2. When a game is under continual attack by preachers, who would call it "The Devil" except its enemies?

3. If Italians didn't know the derivation 50 years later, maybe it's because the word is Arabic, and describes a paraticular innovation in the rules that occurred around 1505 or so, distinguishing the game from Triumphs, and with an Arabic basis. This is what the Grand Robert Dictionaire de la Langue Francaise says, roughly. I'll get the details.

4. You are assuming that the Visconti viper is a monster. Yes, I've read that the red man is a flayed Saracen being devoured by the Devil. I've also read that it depicts the sinner in the mouth of an angry but merciful God. That's a bit more civilized, at least conventionally so. What's the truth about that device?

Re: The tarot and the tarasque...

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:) :) :) Thanks Mikeh!
2. If Italians didn't know the derivation 50 years later, maybe it's because the word is Arabic, and describes a paraticular innovation in the rules that occurred around 1505 or so, distinguishing the game from Triumphs, and with an Arabic basis. This is what the Grand Robert Dictionaire de la Langue Francaise says, roughly. I'll get the details.
Yes. Its a posibility. I read somewhere (Andrea Pullet?), Which could come from an Arabic word referring to the decoration with holes, like the skin of an orange, which in Arabic is said like tarot (or similar).

However, this is rare. Between 1442 and 1505, never speak of "tarot" or "taraux" or "taroccho" ... It the game of triumphs. That is, a new word, the late fifteenth century, early sixteenth century. Long ago the Arab origin of the cards (mid, late fourteenth century) has passed.
3. You are assuming that the Visconti viper is a monster.
No. I not, but yes the cardmarkers french in century XV. That is, imagine you are a cardmarkers of Avignon. Fifteenth century. What would you think seeing a snake eating a man? I, sure, in the tarasque. The meanings of heraldry among the nobles, not necesarily perceived equal as the normal people ... especially if the symbols are foreign.
1. The word "tarocchi" or "taraux" would logically be something that describes the whole game, not just one card, unless it is a particularly critical card, like the King in chess, i.e. "dungeons and dragons," or "hearts," etc. The Devil card doesn't play a very crucial part in the game. And if it did, the name of the game would have likely been called that by the time of the "Steele Sermon" and no doubt lambasted as a game invented by its name-sake. When a game is under continual attack by preachers, who would call it "The Devil" except its enemies?
YES. But they, perhaps, not thinking about the devil, but in the Tarasque, which was like saying "the parade", the "procession". In Spain were so common the tarasque in the processions had a popular saying "There is not procession, if not Tarascan" (No hay procesión sin tarasca). The Tarascan is synonymous with a procession, parade of triumphs ... as in the tarot.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The tarot and the tarasque...

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I try to explain with a chronology the cause i dont think the word "tarot" born of the arabic world.

c. 1360 - 1370 - The cards arrives to Europe. They are called "naibi" and similar, which became the Spanish term "naipes", Italian "Naipi", etcétera.

1400 - 1442 - The cards are called "cartixelles." Probably for the small cardboard on which is painted. The only tarot game like a proper name is "the eight emperors" and "Divinity cards" (Michelino).

1442 - 1505 - The game of tarot is called in Milan and Ferrara "the game of triumphs", and refers also to the many festivals and parades are in Italy. A expcepción is Florence, where they are called "minchiate" or "Germini." I dont know what's happening in Bologna.

1505 - In Ferrara "tarocco" term appears. At the same time that the word "taraux" Avignon. Since then, it will be increasingly used variants of taraux or tarocco ...

Come to France

c. 1475 - Avignon and Lyon (near Provenza) become major centers of industrial production of cards.

c. 1475 to 1500. In Provence is very fashionable Le tarasque (pronounced Tarask). Rene founded Les chevaliers of Tarasque. Festivals are arranged with Le Tarasque protagonist. Its likely that the guilds of craftsmen paid or otherwise employees may participate in these processions. In the procession of Le Tarasque there is a devil, perhaps a fool (I have to check), a virgin and other characters. The procession of the Tarascan becomes deficinición procession of ordinary people, the people, as cardmarkers of Avignon and Lyon.

c. 1500. The influence of France on Lombardy increases greatly. As relations between France and Ferrara.

1505. In Avignon, where Tarasque is very present, the game of triumphs is called "Taraux."


In spanish:

Trataré de explicar con una cronología por qué no pienso que el término "tarot" provenga del mundo árabe.

c. 1360 - 1370 - llegan los naipes a Europa. Son llamados "naibi" y similares, lo que termina convirtiéndose en el término español "naipes", italiano "naipi", etcétera.

1400 - 1442 - Los naipes son llamados "cartixelles". Probablemente por el pequeño cartón sobre el que están pintadas. El único juego parecido al tarot con nombre propio es "los ocho emperadores".

1442 - 1505 - El juego del tarot es llamado en Milan y Ferrara "el juego de los triunfos", y hace referencia también a los muchos desfiles de triunfos que hay por Italia. Una expcepción es Firenze, donde se llaman "Minchiate" o "Germini". No sé qué pasa en Bologna.

1505 - En Ferrara aparece el término tarocco. Al mismo tiempo que en Avignon aparece la palabra taraux. Desde entonces, será cada vez más frecuente emplear variantes de taraux o tarocco...

Vamos a Francia

c. 1475 - Avignon y Lyon (cerca de Provenza) se convierten en grandes centros de producción de naipes industriales.

c. 1475 - 1500. En Provenza está muy de moda Le tarsque (pronunciada tarask). Rene funda Les chevaliers de la tarasque. Se organizan festivales con Le tarasque como protagonista. Es probable que las cofradías de artesanos pagasen o partcipasen de alguna manera en estas procesiones. En la procesión de Le Tarasque hay un Diablo, quizás un loco (tengo que comprobarlo), una virgen y otros personajes. La procesión de la tarasca se convierte en la procesión por deficinición de la gente común, del pueblo, como los naiperos de Avignon y Lyon.

c. 1500. La influencia de Francia sobre Lombardía aumenta mucho. Al igual que las relaciones entre Francia y Ferrara.

1505. En Avignon, donde la Tarasque está muy presente, el juego de los triunfos es llamado "Taraux".
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The tarot and the tarasque...

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mmfilesi wrote:I try to explain with a chronology the cause i dont think the word "tarot" born of the arabic world.
More or less the opinion is strong, that it came from France. The number of the different theories about the origin (maybe there 15-20 meanwhile) makes it a little bit superfluous to discuss the matter ... .-)
c. 1360 - 1370 - The cards arrives to Europe.
That's something like a working hypothesis, based on that, what is really sure. It not naturally describes the true state. It seems likely, that occasionally before cards were imported from the east, but they failed to cause "sure documents". Meister Ingold 1432 expressed the opinion, that cards arrived in Germany in the year 1300 for the first time.
1400 - 1442 - The cards are called "cartixelles."
When and where? There was more than one expression. And there had been different languages.

Probably for the small cardboard on which is painted. The only tarot game like a proper name is "the eight emperors" and "Divinity cards" (Michelino).
1442 - 1505 - The game of tarot is called in Milan and Ferrara "the game of triumphs", and refers also to the many festivals and parades are in Italy. A expcepción is Florence, where they are called "minchiate" or "Germini." I dont know what's happening in Bologna.
Germini didn't appear as an expression in 15th century. Minchiate appears (1466, 1471, 1477), but also the name "Trionfi" appears in Florence. Bolognese "Trionfi" notes appear in 1459 and 1477. A general famous story is that of Prince Fibbia in Bologna, who died 1419 and invented "Tarocchino" according a painting, which was painted in 17th century. This is usually not taken as a serious doument.
1505 - In Ferrara "tarocco" term appears. At the same time that the word "taraux" Avignon. Since then, it will be increasingly used variants of taraux or tarocco ...

Come to France

c. 1475 - Avignon and Lyon (near Provenza) become major centers of industrial production of cards.

c. 1475 to 1500. In Provence is very fashionable Le tarasque (pronounced Tarask). Rene founded Les chevaliers of Tarasque. Festivals are arranged with Le Tarasque protagonist. Its likely that the guilds of craftsmen paid or otherwise employees may participate in these processions. In the procession of Le Tarasque there is a devil, perhaps a fool (I have to check), a virgin and other characters. The procession of the Tarascan becomes deficinición procession of ordinary people, the people, as cardmarkers of Avignon and Lyon.
There is an article to another festivity with triumphal procession character in Aix:
http://www.france-pittoresque.com/traditions/48.htm

This notes a date of 1462 and between the presented figures (which have some similarities to Tarot cards) appears the duc of Urbino (= Montefeltro) and his wife (both had married 1460). Military forces of Provence and Naples had met in fight before or during the year 1462 around Naples ... the opposite forces (Naples) were guided by Montefeltro. So it seems to have been arranged with a "negative touch" and not expressed "honor", that the duc of Urbino was part of the show.
The festivity developed towards a sort of annual procession (since when precisely is not known to us)

Is there any connection to your festivity of the Tarascan? Generally there was a festivity called "feast of the fools" around first of January, which had been spread in various parts of Europe, also and especially in France. This was attacked already by council of Basel in the 1430's and then forbidden by Pope Eugen in 1445. In Italy stronger forms of carnival seems to develop in the 1460's and 1470's. The French and Provencal movements seem to have developed simultaneously.

Generally Renee d'Anjou developed the knight order of the Crescent ca. 1448/49 and members were also Francesco Sforz and Jacopo Marcello. Are these "Les chevaliers of Tarasque" a carnevalesque reply to the foundation of the other order?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The tarot and the tarasque...

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Thanks, Huck! :)

Well...
That's something like a working hypothesis, based on that, what is really sure. It not naturally describes the true state. It seems likely, that occasionally before cards were imported from the east, but they failed to cause "sure documents". Meister Ingold 1432 expressed the opinion, that cards arrived in Germany in the year 1300 for the first time.
I asume its the prohibitions playng cards begin arround 1370-1380, the cards should not have to be popular much earlier. Few decks could arrive in 1300, why not? But when begins to start playing is probably arround this date.

http://trionfi.com/0/p/00/
When and where? There was more than one expression. .
1434 : The court of the d’Este in Ferrara under Niccolo III. buys 2 decks of playing cards from Florence (“nel 1434 il Marchese Nicolo III. Faceva pagare a Ser Ristoro e compagni in Florence sette Fiorini d’oro prezzo di due mazzi di carticelle mandatogli a Ferrara”...

http://trionfi.com/0/p/05/t1.php

Any way, I am widespread: Cartarum, carte, naibi... But not tarot.
And there had been different languages
I asume this its correct:

"The names Taraux and Tarocchi appear (to our knowledge) for the first time in Avignon and Ferrara parallel in the year 1505. France and Ferrara had a political alliance at this time. France ruled over Milan since 1500 and Ferrara offered France an interesting alliance, as Ferrara produces good artillery. The alliance between France and Ferrara endured till France lost Milan in 1512 and Ferrara had to suffer for this. France regained Milan with Francois I, and the political alliance was renewed (again we've documents in Ferrara about Tarocchi productions)".

http://trionfi.com/0/p/23/
A general famous story is that of Prince Fibbia in Bologna, who died 1419 and invented "Tarocchino" according a painting, which was painted in 17th century. This is usually not taken as a serious doument
Yes, thanks, i know. (I think too its not serious).

There is an article to another festivity with triumphal procession character in Aix:
http://www.france-pittoresque.com/traditions/48.htm
:) Great. Thanks Huck.
Is there any connection to your festivity of the Tarascan? Generally there was a festivity called "feast of the fools" around first of January, which had been spread in various parts of Europe, also and especially in France. This was attacked already by council of Basel in the 1430's and then forbidden by Pope Eugen in 1445. In Italy stronger forms of carnival seems to develop in the 1460's and 1470's. The French and Provencal movements seem to have developed simultaneously.


Yes... maybe :) . I now studied it. This is important. The base of the Tarascan-taraux hypothesis is that the name "taraux" comes from a popular triumphal procession. (why? because the cardmarkers of Avignon are popular).
Generally Renee d'Anjou developed the knight order of the Crescent ca. 1448/49 and members were also Francesco Sforz and Jacopo Marcello. Are these "Les chevaliers of Tarasque" a carnevalesque reply to the foundation of the other order?
Lol! I dont know, but its interesting :) ; I studied it.

Regards!
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: The tarot and the tarasque...

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Renee d'Anjou had been only the last ten years of his life in Provence, so from ca. 1470 till 1480.



A Tarasque statue near the castle of Renee d'Anjou in Tarascon.

The dragon of Tarascon story seems to have existed since mid of 13th century ("Il y avait, à cette époque, sur les rives du Rhône, dans un marais entre Arles et Avignon, un dragon, moitié animal, moitié poisson, plus épais qu'un bœuf, plus long qu'un cheval, avec des dents semblables à des épées et grosses comme des cornes; il se cachait dans le fleuve d'où il ôtait la vie à tous les passants et submergeait les navires." ... ca. 1261-1265. There is a connection to St. Martha, whose cult is said to have developed since ca. 1200.
wiki wrote:Legend has it that the creature inhabited the area of Nerluc in Provence, France, and devastated the landscape far and wide. The Tarasque was a sort of dragon with six short legs like a bear's, an ox-like body covered with a turtle shell, and a scaly tail that ended in a scorpion's sting. It had a lion's head.

The Tarasque was said to have come from Galatia which was the home of the legendary Onachus, a scaly, bison-like beast which burned everything it touched. Some speculate that the story of the Onachus may be related to either that of the Unicorn or the Phoenix. The Tarasque was the offspring of the Onachus and the Leviathan of biblical account; disputably a giant sea serpent.
Photo of a fibreglass model of the Tarasque, taken in Tarascon during the June celebrations.

The king of Nerluc had attacked the Tarasque with knights and catapults to no avail. But Saint Martha found the beast and charmed it with hymns and prayers, and led back the tamed Tarasque to the city. The people, terrified by the monster, attacked it when it drew nigh. The monster offered no resistance and died there. Martha then preached to the people and converted many of them to Christianity. Sorry for what they had done to the tamed monster, the newly-Christianized townspeople changed the town's name to Tarascon.
Image


The picture is given to Paolo Uccello and the year 1456. Interestingly Paolo Uccello worked for Montefeltro in the years ca 1465 till some time before his death in 1475.

Tarascon - the legendary location of the dragon - has a distance of 22 km to Avignon (the place, where the Tarot deck of 1505 was produced).

Image


St. Martha celebration in Tarascon, some time ago.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The tarot and the tarasque...

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mmfilesi wrote: I asume its the prohibitions playng cards begin arround 1370-1380, the cards should not have to be popular much earlier. Few decks could arrive in 1300, why not? But when begins to start playing is probably arround this date.
The first known prohibition is known for Bern 1367 ... and it is the oldest secure date. If a few playing cards were imported around 1300, it wouldn't mean, that they immediately had been known everywhere. A researcher about early Bohemian trade of 1850, F. L. Hübsch, in some bypassing sentences noted the presence of playing cards in Bohemia since 1340, and an earlier use of cards in Polonia. He gives no references, his notes were not dated in playing card research as far we know. His text sounds, as if he knew more than one document, that confirms the existence. He kows, that playing cards were considered a game of skill and so were allowed. He knows a first playing card producer Jonathan Kraysel from Nurremberg in the year 1354. All his statements are otherwise unknown (as far we know) to others. He himself is rather not concerned with the topic and his findings, in his time the statement of Master Ingold was more or less considered as correct.

http://trionfi.com/0/p/95/

A technical note to quoting Trionfi.com texts: The page is build by frames to make the content run quicker.
If you wish to quote, you should right click the mouse in the right text field, then in the appearing menu go to "frame" and then go to "view frame info" in the new menu. From the appearing text field take the upper link, which in this case would be

" http://trionfi.com/0/p/95/t1.php "

... and kill the "t1.php", that you get ...

http://trionfi.com/0/p/95/

If you wish to quote a deck of the museum, they all have a number dxxxxx.htm, for instance

http://trionfi.com/m/d00001.htm
http://trionfi.com/m/d00011.htm
http://trionfi.com/m/d00111.htm




Anyway, the story of Hübsch has internal logic together with the known (and accepted) data from playing card research. Bohemia was a region, which more or less didn't suffer from the plague 1348-50. So a humble sort of playing card distribution could develop in slow steps till the relevant moment of Johannes of Rheinfelden in 1377, where Johannes noted, that playing cards arrived in great number and various different forms in this year 1377 in his city Freiburg im Breisgau. Short before in 1376 Emperor Charles had crowned his son, the very young Wenzel, to a Roman king in Aachen. Generally one has to observe, that playing cards were for young people, older persons should have played chess. It seems natural, that playing cards were introduced to the larger public with a young king.
Still it's a card game habit in Bavaria to name the highest Jack or Unter with "Wenzel" .

Some of the early references to playing cards appear in cities near to Bohemia. The first known court with some intensive card playing culture became that of Charles IV.'s half brother Wencelas of Brabant 1379 - 1383.

Nonetheless it seems logical, that a second European production development took place in Spain, likely responsible for the distribution of the Latin suit system, which was only rarely used in German playing cards decks, if, then likely as export cards. For Bohemia (and Prague) it seems plausible, that they got their first cards from the East via trade roots from Kiev or the Black sea (following Hübsch's indication, that Polonia possibly had cards before Bohemia had them).
Last edited by Huck on 20 Apr 2010, 22:55, edited 1 time in total.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The tarot and the tarasque...

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In the sixteenth century, the Tarascan joined in several sacramental (Auto Sacramental) of Spain (from Catalonia to Granada). It is difficult to reconstruct how it was expanding this incorporation of the Tarascan the Easter holidays, but is probabily with the traveling companies of actors who went from village to village, representing these works.

Don Quijote meets one of these companies. These are the actors who formed the company: A Devil (the captain), an Murder, an Angel or/and Cupido, an Queen, an Soldier, an fool (bogiganga)

Complete text:
XI. De la extraña aventura que le sucedió al valeroso Don Quijote con el carro o carreta de las Cortes de la muerte.

«[…] Responder quería Don Quijote a Sancho Panza; pero estórbaselo una carreta que salió al través del camino cargada de los más diversos y extraños personajes y figuras que pudieran imaginarse. El que guiaba las mulas y servía de carretero era un feo demonio. Venía la carreta descubierta al cielo abierto sin toldo ni zarzo. La primera figura que se ofreció á los ojos de Don Quijote fue la de la misma muerte con rostro humano: junto a ella venía un ángel con unas grandes y pintadas alas; al un lado estaba un emperador con una corona al parecer de oro en la cabeza; a los pies de la muerte estaba el dios que llaman Cupido sin venda en los ojos, pero con su arco, carcaj y saetas; venía también un caballero armado de punta en blanco, excepto que no traía morrión ni celada, sino un sombrero lleno de plumas de diversos colores: con estas venían otras personas de diferentes trajes y rostros.

»Todo lo cual visto de improviso, en alguna manera alborotó á Don Quijote y puso miedo en el corazón de Sancho; mas luego se alegró Don Quijote creyendo que se le ofrecía alguna nueva y peligrosa aventura; y con este pensamiento y con ánimo dispuesto de acometer cualquier peligro, se puso delante de la carreta, y con voz alta y amenazadora dijo: carretero, cochero, o diablo, o lo que eres, no tardes en decirme quién eres, a do vas, y quién es la gente que llevas en tu carricoche , que más parece la barca de Caronte, que carreta de las que se usan.

»A lo cual mansamente, deteniendo el diablo la carreta, respondió: señor, nosotros somos recitantes de la compañía de Angulo el Malo [un actor célebre de la época]; hemos hecho en un lugar que está detrás de aquella loma esta mañana, que es la octava del Córpus, el auto de las Cortes de la muerte, y le debemos hacer esta tarde en aquel lugar que desde aquí se parece; y por estar tan cerca y excusar el trabajo de desnudarnos y volvernos á vestir, nos vamos vestidos con los mismos vestidos que representamos.

»Aquel mancebo va de muerte, el otro de ángel, aquella mujer, que es la del autor, va de reina, el otro de soldado, aquel de emperador, y yo de demonio, y soy una de las principales figuras del auto, porque hago en esta compañía los primeros papeles: si otra cosa vuesa merced desea saber de nosotros, pregúntemelo, que yo le sabré responder con toda puntualidad, que como soy demonio todo se me alcanza. Por la fe de caballero andante, respondió Don Quijote, que así como vi este carro imaginé que alguna grande aventura se me ofrecía, y ahora digo que es menester tocar las apariencias con la mano para dar lugar al desengaño. Andad con Dios, buena gente, y haced vuestra fiesta, y mirad si mandáis algo en que pueda seros de provecho, que lo haré con buen ánimo y buen talante, porque desde muchacho fui aficionado á la carátula [teatro con máscaras], y en mi mocedad se me iban los ojos tras la farándula.

»Estando en estas pláticas quiso la suerte que llegase uno de la compañía , que venia vestido de bogiganga (4) con muchos cascabeles, y en la punta de un palo traía tres vejigas de vaca hinchadas, el cual moharracho llegándose á Don Quijote comenzó á esgrimir el palo y a sacudir el suelo con las vejigas, y a dar grandes saltos sonando los cascabeles, cuya mala visión así alborotó á Rocinante, que sin ser poderoso a detenerle Don Quijote, tomando el freno entre los dientes, dio a correr por el campo con mas ligereza que jamás prometieron los huesos de su anotomía. Sancho, que consideró el peligro en que iba su amo de ser derribado, saltó del rucio, y a toda priesa fue a valerle; pero cuando á él llegó ya estaba en tierra y junto á él Rocinante, que con su amo vino al suelo […].
I dont know whats hapen with Chorpus Christi in Avignon arround 1475-1500. My knowledge of French is not enough.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)