Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#131
Man = Aquarius
Bull = Taurus
Lion = Leo
Eagle = Scorpio

... is an astrological cycle. a wheel. The order runs (on the picture) in counter-clock direction
A-B-C-D have 24 possibilities, in 4 of them the astrological signs run clockwise , in 4 they run in the counter clock manner.
So this feature might be well just accidental.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#132
Huck wrote:
19 Feb 2018, 20:01
Man = Aquarius
Bull = Taurus
Lion = Leo
Eagle = Scorpio

... is an astrological cycle. a wheel. The order runs (on the picture) in counter-clock direction
A-B-C-D have 24 possibilities, in 4 of them the astrological signs run clockwise , in 4 they run in the counter clock manner.
So this feature might be well just accidental.
But Eagle = Scorpio is a 19th century convention, popularized by Drummonds speculations on biblical astrology, 1811, a bit anachronistic (unless you have some pre-19th century examples of Eagle = Scorpio? At least 17th century for Tarot de Marseille pattern?)

In Agrippa for example, Man = the water signs; Eagle = air signs' bull = earth sign; lion = fire signs --
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#134
I agree with both Huck and Steve.

I wrote, a while back, after noticing that the Lazzarelli/Mantegna configuration had eagle and lion on top, man and bull on bottom:
But the configuration was almost always different: typically the angel and the eagle were on top, and the lion and the bull on the bottom (sometimes switching sides). It is the same on the earliest tarot World card of this design that I know, the "Sforza Castle," as well as all subsequent ones.

Presumably it was felt that lions and bulls, being heavier than angels and eagles, and less frequently found with wings, should be on the bottom. To my knowledge, only the Lazzarelli illumination and the S-series "Mantegna," have eagle and lion on top and the angel and bull on the bottom.
I think I understand the Tarot de Marseille-style World card better now. It has man-eagle on top, left to right, and bull-lion on the bottom, left to right. There is also the Vieville formation, where the bull and lion are switched (below far right; near right is Tarot de Marseille, Noblet; the Lazzarelli and E series Mantegna are at left).
Image
The Tarot de Marseille configuration corresponds, on three points, to the position in a circular map of the zodiac, with January near the top. Then Aquarius, the man, will be on the top left, Scorpio on the top right, Taurus bottom left, and Leo the bottom right. The only lack of correspondence is that instead of a scorpion we have an eagle.
Image
That is evidence of a sort. These maps are quite old, going back to ancient times.

Why and when did the scorpion become an eagle I don't know, but I can surmise. One reason might be that it was not thought appropriate for an evangelist to be associated with a poisonous insect. When would that have happened? Here I think there's evidence. One of the Rose Windows at Chartres, the one with Christ in the center, has the symbols for the evangelists (four of the group of 12 in the middle circle around Christ), laid out mucht like their place in the zodiacal circle. But there is an eagle where we would have a scorpion. Chartres is well before the 15th century.
Image
So Huck's hypothesis that Eagle might have equaled Scorpio by the 15th century has some evidence, at least going back to the 12th century. It probably goes back further. (I know that the Chartres configuration doesn't quite fit the zodiacal circle, as the bull is where the lion should be and vice versa, as in Vieville. I am not claiming that it fits precisely, merely that it is close enough to make it plausible that it is a zodiacal configuration tweaked for some reason.)

Steve has shown how the Lazzarelli/Type E Mantegna fits an alchemical layout. The Heilige Dreifaltigkeiit of course was the brainchild of the Marquise of Mantua's German father; she (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_o ... _of_Mantua) was contemporary with Bianca Maria Visconti, as Huck once pointed out to me. Lazzarrelli, as an alchemical writer, surely knew the work. On the face of it, that the type E is the same as his is evidence of a sort that the type E, but not the S, was influenced by Lazzarelli, since S was just before his book and the E after it.

The alchemical layout is also based on the zodiacal circle. The sequence Eagle-Lion-Bull-Man, counter-clockwise on the card, corresponds to the zodiacal circle in a clockwise direction, as Huck may have been trying to point out. But I don't think it's accidental, because it's the most logical variation on the original, and, as I think Steve was noticing, if you start with Bull, and go counter-clockwise, then you have earth-water-air-fire, the normal sequence of elements, using Agrippa's system (see Steve's post), which we also see in Mylius's Philosophia Reformata and other early 17th century alchemical works, at least for the air-lady with the eagle on her head (below downloaded from Wikimedia Commons). So I agree with Steve on the relevance of that system of correspondences to the Lazzarelli/E-series card.
Image
So it's two systems with two different pedigrees. In one, the zodiacal, Eagle=Scorpio=Water, and Man=Aquarius=Air; in the other, perhaps alchemical, Eagle=Air, and Man=Water.

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#135
If Drummonds in 19th century had the idea with Scorpio, somebody in 15th century might have had it, too.
Johannes at Patmos was 1st century. In 1st century astrological models weren't completely fixed on the model of modern astrology. Manilius, also 1st century, had ...
Leo = Jupiter
Aquarius = Juno
----------------------
Venus = Taurus
Mars = Scorpio
...
Manilius had in his system the 6 oppositions paired (male-female):

Athena (Aries) - Vulcanus (Libra)
Venus (Taurus) - Mars (Scorpio)
Apollo (Gemini) - Diana (Sagittarius)
Mercury (Cancer) - Ceres (Capricorn)
Jupiter ( Leo) - Juno (Aquarius)
Vesta (Virgo) - Neptun (Pisces)

Let's look at the composition of Jupiter-Juno-Mars-Venus:
Jupiter ... highest reigning god
Juno ... his wife
Mars ... the only legitimate son of Juno and Jupiter (somehow the prince, the legitimate heir), has 3 children with the wife of his half-brother Vulcanus
Venus ... the super-goddess of Love, somehow the aunt of Jupiter and Juno and the great-aunt of Vulcanus, her husband, and Mars, her lover

Somehow it looks nicely composed ....
Venus + Mars fight in the Trojan war on the side of Troja, and one son of Venus, Aeneas, gets with the help of Venus in the region of Rome and somehow he was important for the foundation of the city Rome. Manilius, I think, was a Roman, he dedicated his work to Augustus. So Venus and Mars had local importance in Rome, then, c. 10-20 AD, relative short before Johannes at Patmos.
I read, that an astrologer of 4th century, Firmicus Maternus, wrote an astrological work of 8 books based on the astrology of Manilius, the idea, that this astrology was without any greater influence, seems to be wrong.

The Mantegna Tarocchi of 15th century with its Jupiter presentation makes clear, that the eagle is a common attribute to Jupiter. If we would have an eagle on the place of Scorpio in an astrology, which has Jupiter in Leo (not the planet, but the mythological figure), this wouldn't be a surprise. If Mars would be compared to this eagle ... why not? The eagle as presentation of highest military power is common.

The eagle of Zeus has its best mythical story in the tale of Ganymedes, who was carried by the eagle to the Olymp to serve as a Mundschenk (cup-bearer) there ... the man for the fluid stuffs, the Wassermann (water-man / Aquarius).

So we have the 4 figures. Ganymed as Aquarius, the eagle as the eagle of Zeus, Zeus himself and as a 4th aspect a woman with cow-attributes (cow cause of Taurus) as in Io, who was a foe to Hera and wandered through the countries till she reached Egypt, where she became Isis.

In first century likely there were a lot of different religions competing with each other and likely there was also a competition in astrology (Isis belonged to a successful cult, which even reached Germany far in the North.

Ganymed ascended to heaven as Hercules did and also Jesus. The new Jesus cult might have had well an opposition from persons, who preferred old mythical ideas instead the form, which became later the astrological standard.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#136
mikeh wrote:
21 Feb 2018, 14:35

Why and when was it changed? I don't know, but I can surmise. One reason might be that it was not thought appropriate for an evangelist to be associated with a poisonous insect. When would that have happened? Here I think there's evidence. One of the Rose Windows at Chartres, the one with Christ in the center, has the symbols for the evangelists (four of the group of 12 in the middle circle around Christ), laid out mucht like their place in the zodiacal circle. But there is an eagle where we would have a scorpion. Chartres is well before the 15th century.
But, beside the fact that the bull and lion are in the wrong place, it isn't a zodiacal circle anyway [so, they are not in the 'wrong' place!] !?

But let's for a moment imagine that it is, but view it from the other side - then the lion and bull are in the correct place, and the eagle is with aquarius and man with scorpio (fitting air-eagle, man-water, as in Agrippa) -
Image
All present and correct, as per Agrippa!

As 'evidence' goes, it really doesn't help us very much!
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#137
In matters of the eagle one shouldn't forget about the eagle, who bothered Prometheus long before Ganymed ....
Image
Prometheus together with Atlas. Both appear in the 10th (Atlas) and 12th work (Prometheus) of Hercules. Hercules saved Prometheus.

German wiki: "Die Gestalt des Adlers und auch Ganymed wurden nach einer Überlieferung von Zeus als Sternbilder an den Himmel versetzt, Ganymed dabei als Tierkreiszeichen Wassermann." According a tradition Eagle and Ganymed were set as star pictures at the heaven of the night by Zeus. Eagle as Aquila, Ganymed as Aquarius.
Aquila is near the end of Scorpio, closer to Sagittarius.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#138
Huck wrote:
21 Feb 2018, 21:36
If Drummonds in 19th century had the idea with Scorpio, somebody in 15th century might have had it, too.
Sure, they might - and I am pretty sure we are all aware of various arguments of the 'why' such associations could be made, and we can speculate about that might to our hearts content!

Against that speculative might, we have the testimony of someone close to the period who did make an astrological association - Agrippa, who associated the Eagle, quite logically, with the Air signs - and in my book, the testimony of what someone did do, trumps any of our speculations as to what some unknowns may have done --
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#139
SteveM wrote
But let's for a moment imagine that it is, but view it from the other side - then the lion and bull are in the correct place, and the eagle is with aquarius and man with scorpio (fitting air-eagle, man-water, as in Agrippa) -
Good point, Steve. The eagle could be aquarius. As to which it was, aquarius or scorpio. I tend to think a man would substitute for a man, and an animal for an animal, but more research is required. It still seems to me that the positions of the four evangelists in the window correspond to the positions of at least three of the zodiacal signs in the map. And the same for the Heilige Dreifaltigkeit and the Tarot de Marseille. Hence it is likely that the fourth, the eagle, is a substitution. There just appear to have been different ways of doing it. But some substitution was in effect, when a correspondence to the evangelists was also desired, at least by the 12th century.

I see Huck's post as a suggestion for why an eagle might have been picked to replace the scorpion, as a representation of an evangelist: Aquila is a constellation near Scorpio.

Note: in my previous post, for ease in visualization I added images of the Lazzarelli, Mantegna E, and Tarot de Marseille, plus Vieville, which has the other way of placing the bull and lion.

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

#140
mikeh wrote:
22 Feb 2018, 01:27
As to which it was, aquarius or scorpio. I tend to think a man would substitute for a man, and an animal for an animal, but more research is required. It still seems to me that the positions of the four evangelists in the window correspond to the positions of at least three of the zodiacal signs in the map.
Well, besides what we may think, we know in Agrippa's compendium of attributions, the Man he associates with Water signs and the Eagle with Air --
(A connection with water signs, and thus through them their co-signified houses, would suggest Man as a Man of Sorrows type connection)

The reasons generally given for the substitution are that they relate to the emblems of the tribes of Israel (well, we have a three out of 12 match), the 12 tribes in four groups of three camped in the four quarters at which were placed the banners of the eagle, lion, bull and man -- the Eagle was the banner of the Tribe of Dan, though their emblem was actually a serpent - the change from a serpent to an eagle people suggest is cognate with a change from a serpent to an eagle (in modern astrology the three, the eagle, the serpent and the eagle have applied all of these to Scorpio as representing 'different octaves' of the sign) --

This idea was basically promulgated in a book by Drummond in 1811 expounding upon a theory of biblical astrology - it is from then that the idea that Eagle=Scorpio became popularized (and yes it has been suggested by many the association is through the constellation of Aquilla, rather with Scorpio directly) - it was more common prior to then I think to associate the Eagle with air, thus aquarius - and your chartre example follows that, keeping the lion and the bull in their correct place (it seems perverse to me to missplace the two knowns in support of the two unknowns, rather than the other way round - by the same token, the order in the Tarot de Marseille would then suggest Eagle=Scorpio, most of them going from bottom left, bull, lion, eagle, man) :
Image
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The attribution of the tribes to the signs vary of course among several sources, here is the scale of four from Agrippa:
Image
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Drummond's basis for the substitution of the eagle for the adder he got from Kircher, following up on his reference to Kircher, I find the exact quote is:

"Creditum est Dan quod cerastem in vexillo pingere recusaret aquilam pro serpente pinxisse Ita putaverunt doctores et merito"

{It is believed that Dan, rejecting the image of the horned adder, had an eagle painted in place of the snake for the merit of his officers}

Kircher does not give a source, but it is possible from his fellow Jesuit Jerome de Prado [1547 – 13 January 1595], who wrote in his commentary on Ezekiel:

“The different leaders of the tribes had their own standards, with the crests of their ancestors depicted upon them. On the east, above the tent of Naasson the first-born of Judah, there shone a standard of a green colour, this colour having been adopted by him because it was in a green stone, viz., an emerald, that the name of his forefather Judah was engraved on the breastplate of the high priest (Ex. 25:15ff.), and on this standard there was depicted a lion, the crest and hieroglyphic of his ancestor Judah, whom Jacob had compared to a lion, saying, ‘Judah is a lion’s whelp.’ Towards the south, above the tent of Elisur the son of Reuben, there floated a red standard, having the colour of the sardus, on which the name of his father, viz., Reuben, was engraved upon the breastplate of the high priest. The symbol depicted upon this standard was a human head, because Reuben was the first-born, and head of the family. On the west, above the tent of Elishamah the son of Ephraim, there was a golden flag, on which the head of a calf was depicted, because it was through the vision of the calves or oxen that his ancestor Joseph had predicted and provided for the famine in Egypt (Gen. 41); and hence Moses, when blessing the tribe of Joseph, i.e., Ephraim (Deu. 33:17), said, ‘his glory is that of the first-born of a bull.’ The golden splendour of the standard of Ephraim resembled that of the chrysolite, in which the name of Ephraim was engraved upon the breastplate. Towards the north, above the tent of Ahiezer the son of Dan, there floated a motley standard of white and red, like the jaspis (or, as some say, a carbuncle), in which the name of Dan was engraved upon the breastplate. The crest upon this was an eagle, the great doe to serpents, which had been chosen by the leader in the place of a serpent, because his forefather Jacob had compared Dan to a serpent, saying, ‘Dan is a serpent in the way, an adder (cerastes, a horned snake) in the path;’ but Ahiezer substituted the eagle, the destroyer of serpents as he shrank from carrying an adder upon his flag.”
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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