Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

Following some older lines ...
4. cycle formerly in the Villa della Magliana

This seems to be an interesting story, as we find again persons connected to the Lazzarelli-hypothesis: ...

The building was initiated by Pope Sixtus in 1480, 8km distance from the center of Rome, on the Tiber - at the Road to Fiumicino / Built by Pope Innocent 8 (1484–1492. and Julius 2 - (1503–15). In this Villa Pope Leo X died - 1522. It was abandoned later ... (cause Sacco di Roma ?)

"Qui si apre il grande salone delle feste detto anche delle Muse, un vasto ambiente rettangolare che era anticamente decorato ad affresco e che conserva ancora un monumentale camino del tempo di Giulio II. Erano raffigurate alle pareti le Dieci Muse, ora collocate al Museo di Roma di Palazzo Braschi. "

One picture I found:
"Giovanni di Pietro detto lo Spagna, Euterpe, secondo decennio del XVI secolo, affresco staccato, Museo di Roma, Palazzo Braschi, Roma, già Villa della Magliana" ... t_1512.htm


... but seems to be painted in the time of pope Leo (Giovanni di Medici) or late Julius (the picture address is "iconografia/prot_1512.jpg", possibly indicating, that the work is given to 1512 (which would be then commissioned by Julius).
at ... viewtopic.php?f=12&t=463&start=60#p6426

Here's a picture of an older exhibition. In the background is Apollo and Muses with similarities to the Mantegna Tarocchi:
Pubblico che assiste alla conferenza per l’inaugurazione della mostra nella sala del Museo di Roma che prendeva nome dal ciclo di affreschi con Apollo e le Muse provenienti dalla villa papale alla Magliana
I detect these ... ... leria=true











Some pictures in color are given at this flickr page:

One meets different names for the artist ... flickr gives "Gerino da Pistoia", gives "Pietro Vannucci", the text below the pictures gives "Giovanni Spagna".

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

Another one from ...
5. Cremonese cupola currently in the Victoria & Albert Museum

The earlier search was totally negative (if nothing else has happened meanwhile to contribute to the question, which I don't remember). But here it is.

Image ... m-cremona/
... gives a movie about the restoration work and a little larger picture.
This domed ceiling was originally located in a ground floor room of the Casa Maffi in Cremona, Italy. It was painted in about 1500 by a local artist, Alessandro Pampurino, and is decorated with frescos depicting an old man, a boy and a woman listening to the Muses. Eight smaller lunettes are painted in imitation of bas-relief with heads of Roman emperors and their wives, probably based on ancient coins. Many of the figures, particularly the Muses, bear a marked resemblance to those on contemporary tarot cards.
Single motifs you get at this page ... ... lessandro/

... for instance this ...


(You have to follow the small pictures)

The center shows three downlooking persons ...

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

Another one from ...

1. Regia Carmina of Convenevole da Prato (see Vienna, ONV, ser. nov. 2639; London, BM, Royal 6, E. IX; and Florence BN, II.I.27) .... I can't locate the Muses pictures
It seems to be this ...

at ... -4232.html

... if one can trust these business ideas. ... 95270.html
Four Muses (From Regia Carmina by Convenevole da Prato). Artist: Pacino di Buonaguida (active 1302-1343)
Convenevole da Prato

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

Again from ....
... some questions 5 years ago
7. sixteenth-century model book based on the "Mantegna tarocchi' (Paris, Bibliotheque de l"arsenal, fr. 5066), in which the pictures are accompanied by short explanatory French verses

Did Hind mention this one?
Whow, I found it ...
... we should have found it earlier.
There are some pictures similar to the Mantegna Tarocchi: ... 066.langEN
Titre : Recueil de 131 tableaux ou figures, tant dessinées au trait et ombrées que peintes
Date d'édition : 1501-1600
Sujet : Paulmy (Antoine-René d'Argenson, marquis de). Manuscrits lui ayant appartenu
Sujet : Picard (Charles-Adrien). Manuscrits lui ayant appartenu
Sujet : Lucrèce, femme de Collatin. dessin
Sujet : Tableaux. Recueil de 131 tableaux ou figures, tant dessinées au trait et ombrées que peintes, avec des vers pour chaque dessin
Sujet : W couronnés, sur des reliures
Type : manuscrit
Langue : Français
Format : Parchemin. - 128 feuillets, plus les feuillets A-B. - Écriture et dessins du XVIe siècle. - 314 × 242 mm. - Reliure en maroquin fauve, à fils d'or. Au dos, des W couronnés
Droits : domaine public
Identifiant : ark:/12148/btv1b55006390m
Source : Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal, Ms-5066 réserve
Description : Contient : Les Triomphes de Pétrarque ; Les dieux et déesses du paganisme ; Les neuf Muses ; Proverbes et figures ; Habillements et caractères des femmes de différentes nations ; « L'exposition des couleurs » et leur signification ; Représentation de Marcus Furius et de Lucrèce ; Emblèmes ; « Ce sont les XII sebilles » ; Table
Description : Des vers accompagnent chacun de ces dessins.
Provenance :
Date de mise en ligne : 12/11/2012


1. Interpretation of Petrarca's Trionfi (8 themes)
2. Pagan gods (19 themes, Saturn-Jupiter-Bacchus-Pan-Neptun-Vulcan-Mercury-Mars-Apollo-Pluto-Hercules-Cybele-Minerva-Juno-Venus-Diane-Ceres-Isis-Thetis)
3. 9 Muses (9 themes)
4. Proverbs (61 themes)
5. 10 women of different nations (10 themes)
6. 10 colors in 5 pairs (5 themes)
7. 2 Romans (Marcus Curios and Lucretia)(2 themes)
8. 4 emblems (Ovid, Hercules captured by a sleeping Amor, a ship with foolish idle things, "humanitas vincit") (4 themes)
9. 12 Sybils (12 themes)

128 themes, 131 figures, but some have double pictures, so 157 figures.

The first 3 groups (1-36) contain pictures, which have similarities to the Mantegna Tarocchi. These are: Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Apollo + 9 Muses (sometimes with some distance), Venus (only a little bit), Mercury (with some distance), Minerva (28 Philosophy) and Vulcan (a little bit like 3 Artixan).

15 of the 19 gods belong to the 16 gods in the "Eschecs amourex" of Evrart de Conty, only Asclepius is missing. Additional are Ceres, Hercules, Iris (Isis ? it's handwritten and the picture is not clear) and Thetis. The motifs of some of the gods have greater similarities to the presentation used by Eschecs amoureux editions.

The "De deorum imaginibus libellus / Albrici / Reg. Lat. 1290" contains Ceres and Hercules, but not Iris/Isis and not Thetis. Thetis is combined with 3 winds and Flora, and Aelous (father of the winds) is part of the Albrici. The Albrici has additional to the 18 of the 19 gods Vesta, Janus, Asclepius, Orpheus and Perseus.
See motifs of both ...

The 16 gods of the Michelino deck have additionally (to the 19 gods) Amor + Daphne + Aeolus + Vesta, but not Saturn, Pan, Vulcan, Pluto, Cybele, Isis/Iris and Thetis.

The 8 Petrarca (usually 6) motifs contain an additional fight between Fortune and Raison (7+8). The row of the winning allegories looks confused, Eternity wins again Time too early. Amor in his fight wins again Iove, Neptun and Pluto (and later in the text he captures Hercules).

Here's the curious Isis or Iris:


Amor wins again 3 major gods ...


... and also against Hercules.


Fortune fights against Raison:


The most noble Lady (No 10) above the German (No 1) and the French lady (No 9) is the Duchesse de Bar (perhaps the sponsor of the book ?).


Many colors are bad for clothing, so this are likely the Fool's colors:


... and he seems to have a name: "Riolf Piolf"


I remember, that there were other French Petrarca: "Trionfi" editions, which also focussed on the fights between the Petrarca allegories, not on the triumphs and on the chariots.

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

I remember, that recently somewhere (here in the Forum?) Atropos, Lachesis and Clotho stood on a female body (a picture).
Well, I get it from here ...
The Triumph of Death, or The 3 Fates

Flemish Tapestry (probably Brussels, ca. 1510-1520)
Victoria and Albert Museum, London, England

The three fates, Clotho, Lachesis and Atropos, who spin, draw out and cut the thread of Life, represent Death in this tapestry, as they triumph over the fallen body of Chastity. This is the third subject in Petrarch's poem The Triumphs. First, Love triumphs; then Love is overcome by Chastity, Chastity by Death, Death by Fame, Fame by Time and Time by Eternity.
The same motif is used for the Petrarca Trionfi in the above described French manuscript with its 128 themes.


The following picture is then Fame triumphing about the 3 ...




I wonder about the date of the manuscript. Gallica gives very cautiously 1501-1600.
The text shows a "Duchesse of Bar" as the most elegant woman, any other person seems not to be honored. A possible duchess of Bar would be Philippa of Geldern, wife of René d'Anjou II, duke of Lorraine.

Image ... rraine.cfm
Picture of 1506 in religious text, René with Philippa and children.

René was grandson to Isabella of Lorraine, who got the Michelino deck from Antonio Iacopo Marcello in 1449, he was born in 1451 and was educated at the fabulous court of Rene I d'Anjou, his grandfather. He fought victorious against Charles the Bold of Burgundy in 1477. He participated in the Ferrarese war 1483 on the side of Venice.
He played "Trionfi" in 1496 ( ), this is nearly the first appearance of the outside of Italy.
He is a rather good address for a suspected import of some early Italian Renaissance culture to regions near to France.
Brussels (the suspected location for the production of the Tapestry) isn't too far from Lorraine. The date (1510-1520)
is close enough to have had an influence of the Lorraine court.


Louise of Savoy, mother of King Francois I, was a relative to Philippa from Philippa's mother's side. Around 1497 (as far I remember) the production of one hand painted edition of the Eschecs amoureux for Louise is noted.


Louise plays chess



from the discussed text

This is the text of the short poem for "duchesse of Bar" ...


... I'm not an expert for French handwritten text, but I can identify a "Charles roy fracois" at the end.
One roy Charles (VIII) reigned till 1498, another Charles (IX) came to reign since 1560.
Perhaps somebody can help with this text.



Story of the duchy Bar, according wiki ...
In 1354 the Count of Bar took the ducal title and was thereafter recognised as a Peer of France.[1] Père Anselme (died 1694) believed that Count Robert had been created a duchy by King John II of France in preparation for the count's marriage to John's daughter, Mary.[2] The rulers of Bar were not created dukes by imperial appointment. The only title Count Robert received by imperial grant in 1354 was that of Margrave of Pont-à-Mousson.[5] This margraviate was frequently bestowed by the Dukes of Bar on their heirs apparent. In that same year the emperor raised the County of Luxembourg into a duchy and Bar fell between two duchies, Luxembourg and Upper Lorraine.[6] The ducal title was accepted, however, and the imperial tax register of 1532 records the "Duchy on the Meuse" (Herzogtum von der Maß) as a voting member of the Reichstag

In 1430 the last duke of the male line of the ruling house, Louis, died.[6] Bar passed to his great-nephew, René I, who was married to Isabella, Duchess of Lorraine. In 1431 the couple inherited Lorraine. On René's death in 1480, Bar passed to his daughter Yolanda and her son, René II, who was already Duke of Lorraine. In 1482 he conquered the prévôté of Virton, a part of the Duchy of Luxembourg, and annexed it to Bar. In 1484 Peter II, Duke of Bourbon, regent for King Charles VIII of France, formally installed him in the Duchy of Bar.[7] In his final testament published in 1506, René decreed that the two duchies should never be separated.[4] The two duchies remained joined in personal union permanently.

La guerre de Ferrare et ses déboires avec la royauté.
Le 3 mai 1482, la république de Venise déclara la guerre à Ercole d’Este, duc de Ferrare et partisan de Ferrante d’Aragon, usurpateur du royaume de Sicile, alors possession de la Maison d’Anjou. René II décida quelques après d’apporter sa précieuse aide au doge mais ne quitta sa bonne cité ducal de Nancy que le 11 mars 1483, en compagnie d’un bon nombre de seigneurs lorrains et de l’évêque de Verdun. En passant par la Suisse, le duc de Lorraine recruta de nombreux mercenaires lui permettant de porter à 200 cavaliers et à 1 000 fantassins son corps expéditionnaire. Il est reçu en grande pompe par le doge de Venise le 13 avril.

Après une brillante victoire sur Ercole d’Este et ses troupes le 20 avril, René II, fraîchement nommé capitaine général des troupes vénitiennes, entreprit le siège de la cité de Ferrare. Davantage préoccupé par le sort de la Sicile, le duc de Lorraine laissa le soin d’achever la prise de Ferrare au bâtard de Calabre. Il se retira donc à Padoue afin d’organiser l’expédition sicilienne mais en apprenant la mort du roi de France Louis XI, qui intervint le 8 septembre, il préféra s’en retourner en Lorraine dès le 22 septembre avant de se rendre auprès d’Anne de Beaujeu, la défunte reine et de Charles VIII, le tout jeune roi.
René II n’arriva à Blois que le 25 octobre où l’attendait la régente Anne de Beaujeu. Désirant se l’attacher, la reine de France lui restitua le Barrois, occupé jadis par Louis XI et lui proposa même d’épouser Philippe de Gueldres, ce qu’il fit d’ailleurs mais nous en reparlerons.
From the wiki to Philippa we get: "The marriage took place in Orléans on 1 September 1485."
From other sources we get, that René was already married, but to a childless women, Jeanne d'Harcourt, since 1471. So we have there a reason, why it took so much time. René refused his wife already in 1475, but it took 10 years till the allowance to divorce and marry again was given, at August 8 in 1485. As if this was not complicated enough, the young Louis of Orleans (who later would became king of France as Louis XII and who also had comparable problems with his wife, btw) had started the "Mad War" ( ). This war was paused by a truce for one year ....
"On 30 August [1485], Louis of Orléans launched a proclamation against the regency. The royal army went to Orléans, but Louis escaped to Beaugency, from where he was dislodged by the young Louis II de La Trémoille in September. On 9 August, Francis II of Brittany also agreed to a truce. The truce was agreed for one year, and is known as the Peace of Bourges, signed on 2 November 1485."
A already stated ... ""The marriage took place in Orléans on 1 September 1485." ... it's not easy to see, how this fits in the interaction. Maybe these curious things have something to do with the short poem.

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

Huck wrote:
Many colors are bad for clothing, so this are likely the Fool's colors:


... and he seems to have a name: "Riolf Piolf"
In french 'piole' may mean 'shack', cubby-hole', but in equine terms 'piole' means variagated, speckled, spotted, dappled - so might relate here to his many, variegated colours, this would make sense in reference to the other woman being labeled Noir - Black - so there seems to be a connection with colour.

faulx senblant = faux-semblant ? (false appearance, pretense)
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The "Mantegna": 1450's Bologna?

SteveM wrote: In french 'piole' may mean 'shack', cubby-hole', but in equine terms 'piole' means variagated, speckled, spotted, dappled - so might relate here to his many, variegated colours, this would make sense in reference to the other woman being labeled Noir - Black - so there seems to be a connection with colour. Riole = debauchery, pleasure party?

faulx senblant = faux-semblant ? (false appearance, pretense)
Yes, faux-semblant seems correct. I think of the Fool-figure mainly according the baton with wind play, which is also used for the Fool elsewhere ...




The wind-play is also used for "Fortune" in the discussed text (see above 2 posts before).

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