debra wrote:If it's a metrological tool--a measuring device--what do you think it measures?

Periodicity as it concerns planetary cycles and musical acoustics - on occasion referred to as the ‘music of the spheres’ - though One could describe it as a TooL for geometrically modeling a fundamental problem arising from the mathematics of Pythagorean tuning: the inherent disparity between 7 octaves & 12 perfect fifths. Going into much more detail than that without, at the very least, a ‘basic’ familiarity with the structure described above, might just appear as further scribbling by another ‘mad’ scientist.

I can understand, given a proliferation of wild-eyed loonies claiming to have ‘solved the mystery,’ why anyone would be loathe to pursue this line of reasoning; but we must still allow for the possibility of a Philosophical Riddle embedded within Tarot. And, in light of the alchemical allegory provided, it should be fairly easy to see how Crowley’s transpositions apply.



[0] unison (1:1)
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
[5] perfect fourth (4:3)
<--------------------------------------√2 diabolus in musica ≈ 11/8
[7] perfect fifth (3:2)
[8]
[9]
[10]
[11]
[12] octave (2:1)

1 U.S. Gallon = 231 inches³ = 128 fluid oz.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/OctahedralNumber.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_ ... atic_scale
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachords

Huck wrote:

Pen wrote:
Huck talks about 'the burning animal' in the minchiate in another thread, about half way down this page:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=420&start=10

It would seem from his post that he hadn't seen the alchemical image at that time - I wonder if he'd dismiss the similarities between it and the minchiate image as a fairy tale - it'd be interesting to know what he and others would think.

Pen

Nice finding, thanks. I was aware, that there might be an alchemic background, but I hadn't a specific picture in mind. I've seen this picture earlier, but it didn't immediately jump to my mind.

Now we don't know, how the early Minchiate/Germini looked like ... the known versions start around 1700, although at least some motifs should be older.
Recently I followed the ways of "Splendour Solis", a book with 22 pictures, produced in the Fugger context. The Fugger got in the European banking system the position, which earlier was filled by the Medici and the whole found its expression in the 1520's, when Medici popes ruled against an emperor, who got his throne with the money of Fugger ... the situation was stranding in the sacco di Roma, finishing a longer period of Italian dominance and proceeding the period of Spanish influence since Alfonso of Aragon 1442 and following dominance till the loss of the Armada.

here
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=402&p=4983&hilit=splendour#p4983

To the Minchiate "Fire" card (Nr. 20) surely belongs the "fire in the hand" of Caritas (card Nr. 19), see the Germini/Minchiate article.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=420&start=10

Added:
I made some further evaluation in the Lorenzo Spiroto thread
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=442

Huck, I don't want to hijack Yngweron's thread any further, but thanks, I'm going to get my deck out and read up on the minchiate threads.

Pen

robert wrote:I'm in love with the iconography of the early tarot decks, and tracing the changes to the iconography as the decks travelled between cities and countries, and I tend not to care about astrology, kabballah, alchemy, or pretty much any of the esoteric systems that many people attach to tarot because in the years that I've been exploring tarot history, there just doesn't seem to me to be much of a connection between them.

Of course, if you assume One does not exist, then your interpretations of Tarot iconography will tend to filter out evidence to the contrary should it arise. All too easily the obvious may be overlooked when our criteria is limited in its’ scope.

I’m willing to recognize that the origins of these images and their ranking may have nothing to do astrology, kabbalah, alchemy, geometry or music theory; but that is simply because I have not focused on the study of decks outside the ‘Marseilles’ pattern. However, with respect to that pattern, there does appear to be an alchemical/qabalistic rationale - One which is rendered more accessible with Crowley’s attributions. Does that mean an esoteric system was in place circa 1650? Perhaps - but you would never suspect it without a knowledge of those systems - nor would you be in position to categorically deny it.

What I have attempted to demonstrate here is a rationale for associating Tarot with the Egyptian god Thoth - insofar as he is the mythological creator of Numbers, Letters, Alchemy, Music, Astrology, & the Calendar; whether One really exists is another issue entirely. The dominant paradigm in Tarot History, as I understand it, argues that these ‘occult’ associations are an interpolation arising in the late 18th century. Yet, without knowing what that esoteric system referred to actually is, I fail to see how it can really be ‘debunked.’ The assumption being made seems to be that it means ‘divination’ (as in fortune telling), when the system (at least, in Crowley’s ‘presentation’ of it) is more of a numerically-keyed symbol puzzle that conforms to the Pythagorean tradition in western philosophy. Until that is understood, no Tarot historian can even see why it would be relevant to the iconography of the Marseilles pattern, much less form a logical argument debunking its influence on the development of Tarot.

[mod note: this post was moved from the topic on building blocks. ]

robert wrote: To be added to the list of building blocks, I think you'll need to prove that it existed beforehand... as a prerequisite to it later being concealed. None of the known early sequences match up with the GD sequence you suggest. It's difficult to imagine the Tarot de Marseille, a (probably) 16th century deck, concealing something that didn't exist until the early 20th century. I think the general opinion, if I may (possibly incorrectly) venture to summarise, is that there would have been some degree of Astrological and Numerological influences, as expected at the time. No one has so far shown a clear alchemical, hermetic or qabbalistic connection to historical tarot, although many have explored that path with great enthusiasm. I usually create a new thread to discuss ideas before adding them to the list, as a thread to discuss your theory already exists, perhaps it is best to explore your proposition further in that thread.

I am willing to discuss this proposition further, but was rather under the impression that it was either being politely ignored or disregarded on principle. As certain noteworthy 'heavies' in this Tarot History forum have all professed their desire to consider any evidence which might necessitate revision of the aforementioned building blocks, 1 thought 1 might remind those concerned that there is One on the table. The alchemical allegory in question is at least a few hundred years older than the 20th century and, by applying numerology, Hermetic qabalah, and astrology to the Marseilles pattern, connects the iconography of the Emperor to The Star & Justice to Strength together by utilizing the essential dignities of Chaldean astrology affecting the Sun (gold) & Saturn (lead). The Philosopher's Riddle embedded within the Tarot de Marseilles has a specific structure which, should you choose to examine it in greater detail, reveals some very curious 'coincidences' that merit further study.
231

Hi Yngwë Yngweron.

By "One," do you mean a representation of God? And what on the Marseille table is that representation?

By "One," do you mean a representation of God? And what on the Marseille table is that representation?

By “One”, I mean there is a method (already outlined in this thread) by which the Tarot de Marseilles pattern functions as a Philosopher’s Riddle - a ‘magical narrative’ which could feasibly be solved by anyOne educated in that ‘esoteric’ quadrivium of studies: mathematics, astronomy, geometry & music. “One” which may challenge some of the current ‘building blocks’ of Tarot History.

Granted, there may be no discernible method linking all the trump rankings of various Tarot patterns together, but with the Tarot de Marseille, at least, there is an application of numerology, hermetic qabalah, and astrology which connects the iconography of trumps VIII:XI & IV:XVII to the alchemical allegory for producing Star Regulus of Antimony. From a certain perspective, One could say that this Riddle still falls within the category of a ‘game’; but, seeing how ‘the rules’ were not provided with the deck, the method itself relies upon an ‘occult’ (as in ‘hidden’) body knowledge - a prisca sapientia.

Ok. I think I'm starting to understand where you're going.

Thank heaven for google. Here's a quickie on the Star Regulus of Antimony.
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:XP ... =firefox-a

So are you saying, then, that one of the original purposes of the Marseille trumps was as an alchemical recipe book?

debra wrote:So are you saying, then, that one of the original purposes of the Marseille trumps was as an alchemical recipe book?

My impression is that the riddle has more to do with the geometry of music & planetary conjunctions than with alchemy per se. The use of alchemical allegory informs the working of this system and ‘speaks’ a language familiar to those versed in ‘the craft’, but its’ architecture is fundamentally ‘rooted’ in eternal verities: periodicity as witnessed in the heavens (astronomy) and on earth (musical harmony). If the idea was to conceal such truths from the ‘unworthy’, we are not likely to find this riddle explicitly detailed in any historical documents, but rather referred to in allegories layered atop a technical jargon utilized as metaphor.

If we entertain the possibility that the Tarot de Marseilles provides a cipher for the Qabalah (aleph=0), then we may begin to understand the rationale behind the assertion of it being the Book of Thoth - a claim which has less to do with divination (as in fortune-telling) than with a system which combines the arts & sciences mythologically attributed to Thoth’s invention. Looking at the deck partitioned by digit root and superimposed over the Tree of Life, One does not behold a static collection of symbols, numbers, and glyphs, but rather something more akin to an alchemist’s Rube Goldberg machine. Within this context, the process of obtaining the cor Leonis thru purifying gold with antimony is a means to accessing an even deeper mystery...

Ok.

Any complex symbol system is likely to align with at least a few other complex symbol systems. But a riddle has an answer. What I see in your suggestions is multiple levels of allegory with no ultimate referent. What is the end (the point) of it, in your opinion? Astronomy, or music, or kabalah, or alchemical transformation? Or everything?

Everything seems like too much.

The mutual alignment of these ‘complex’ systems - Tarot de Marseilles : Hermetic Qabalah : astrological glyphs : alchemical allegory - could be construed as the product of intentional design, with each system built upon the structure of those which preceded it. As riddles go, the One being discussed qualifies as an Aenigma, though it does have it’s share of conundrums too. The ‘referent’ is an architectural framework in accordance with specific mathematical constants and geometric proportions relevant to both music theory and the synodic cycles of planetary conjunction; all of which are integrated to compose a map of the cosmos and of the self - One in tune with the Hermetic maxim: as above, so below. In an allegorical sense, the journey through this map is akin to an alchemical recipe for taking Lead and turning it into Gold; but the process is not a literal transmutation of metals for the attainment of material wealth.

Like the Ouroboros, it ends where it begins, and begins where it ends. In a very real sense, the key to this riddle is in the transposition of trumps VIII:XI - to such a degree that, looking at it in the context of the whole, One can hardly attribute it to mere coincidence.

Yet, thus far, the questions posed have tended to ask for a justification in presenting such a ‘theory’ without, it seems, an examination of the theory itself. At the risk of repeating myself, the outline given provides a rationale for why Tarot has been called the Book of Thoth. I present it to the Tarot scholars of this forum to accept or refute as they choose - but do so with an understanding of how it works rather than how it threatens the so-called ‘building blocks’ of playing card history.

....................... 2² Window <-------------> Fishhook 17
....................../....\....................
..................../........\...................
..♃ 8______/______\____8 ☿
........\......../..............\....../.........
..........\...../................\..../..........
............\./...................\./............
............/..\................../.\............
........../......\.............../....\...........
..♄ 8/_____\_______/____\8☉
....................\........./...................
......................\...../.....................
........................\../.....................
........................ 2³ OX Goad <-------> Serpent


φ = ½(1+√5) = ☉

4:I = = ☉


. . . . . . . . . . . . . . XIX
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .☉
10 ☉--10 ♄--- X ---10 ♂--10 ☿
swords--wands--(“4”)---cups---disks
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .☿
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ace
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .AIR
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ace
. . . . . . . . . . . . WATER
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ace
. . . . . . . . . . . . . FIRE
. . . . . . . . . . . . . .Ace
.. . . . . . . . . . . . EARTH

♄-+----->---------------> 1 ♄ 1