Re: The Precipice

#12
Well put, Huck. However I see a definite cliff in the Fool card. So does Kaplan (Vol. 2, p. 49).

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And it's somewhat arbitrary, what gets connected with death and what doesn't. What about the Hanged Man, and Judgment? Actually, if you look at cards in other decks of the PMB "family" of decks, other cards have definite cliffs. They are listed on p. 49, too.

Re: The Precipice

#13
mikeh wrote:Well put, Huck. However I see a definite cliff in the Fool card. So does Kaplan (Vol. 2, p. 49).

..
And it's somewhat arbitrary, what gets connected with death and what doesn't. What about the Hanged Man, and Judgment? Actually, if you look at cards in other decks of the PMB "family" of decks, other cards have definite cliffs. They are listed on p. 49, too.
Well, you're right. I was careless.

Which p. 49? Kaplan II?

The Lombardy I deck are probably forgeries.
From the Bembo cards the knights and pages in some cases have the cliff. As I said, I don't know, if all artists have had the same opinion about the cliff - or if cards were modified with the time, artists thinking, that the cliff is a "general Sforza theme".

For the artist Nr. 1 it meant, that Death and Fool were decorated with cliff. And one knight and 3 pages - so it might indicate risky life for knights and especially foot-soldiers ... :-) and fools, of course.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: The Precipice

#14
The Encylopedia of Tarot Vol. 2 chart listing the cliff cards is on page 48 - the Lombardy 1 and Von Bartsch groups also have a cliff edge on the Wheel of Fortune, which makes sense Deathwise. Mikeh, that's fascinating and compelling info about poor Elisabetta. Comparing the faces in paintings with those on the cards, considering the history, could easily become an addiction.

I've been wondering about the two triumphs I posted above and searching for for evidence to link the topography to the Certosa di Pavia, without much luck, although I did find this image: http://www.panoramio.com/photo/7212384 which is interesting to compare to the Borgognone altar cloth of the Certosa in Kaplan 2, page 47.



Artistic licence/imagination could account for so many details - after all, the creatures drawing Battista Sforza's triumphal carriage would appear to be either unicorns or adapted horses. Whether the topography is based on a real location or not, whether these two triumphs ever actually took place, either as depicted or differently, the precipice or cliff edge does serve a very real dramatic purpose in elevating the subjects way above their surroundings.

I'm also intrigued by the little tower that appears on the PMB Moon and Sun cards, yet not on the Star. The two towers are not exactly the same, but look similar and could be depicted from a slightly different angle, or just from memory. I tried to find out where Elisabetta was buried - again without luck, but surely the Duomo of Milan or in Montferrat {Wikipedia says (at the bottom of the page) that her husband was the Margrave of Montferrat : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bianca_Maria_Visconti}. I had an idea that if Mikeh's theory were correct, that the tower might represent her burial place, although if so, one would expect to find it also on the Star card.



Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: The Precipice

#16
marco wrote:I would say that the Certosa of Pavia is in one of the flattest places in the world :)

http://maps.google.it/maps?f=q&source=s ... 2&t=h&z=17
Thanks Marco - I was trying to get a way to post a Google Earth picture - forgot they had maps I could just link to.

The engraving always puzzled me - I've been there twice, and there is no hint of a cliff anywhere. It is just flat farmland all around. This cliff must be pure fantasy.
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Re: The Precipice

#18
Pen wrote:Hi Marco,

I looked at the Google map earlier, and couldn't relate it in any way to the cliff on the Borgognone altarcloth, let alone the topography of the two triumphs. The nearest thing to a cliff (with retaining wall) is in this photograph:

http://www.panoramio.com/photo/7212384

It's a tease... :fool

Pen
I think that's just a wall - not a retaining wall. There is a wall around the Certosa lands -
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/24749378
(Cycling path along the wall of the Certosa of Pavia)
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/14477420
(seems to be the same place as your shot)
Image

Re: The Precipice

#20
Ross wrote:
I think that's just a wall - not a retaining wall. There is a wall around the Certosa lands -
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/24749378
(Cycling path along the wall of the Certosa of Pavia)
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/14477420
(seems to be the same place as your shot)
You're right Ross, in your photo, ground level appears the same for both the building itself and the foreground area on the viewer's side of the wall. The angle of the shot in the first photo makes the building look higher. The cycle path shot looks promising though. I do find it difficult to believe that Borgognone would have simply invented the cliff in what seems to have been intended as a realistic/informative image that he must have visited the site in order to make. This is all most interesting, even though the words 'wild' and 'geese' spring to mind.

Huck wrote:
Perhaps a change of the run of the river Po ... can this be excluded?

Or an old channel, which is closed now?
You guys are so much better and more experienced at this sort (any sort actually) of research than I am. What we really need is a decent set of 15th cent. Ordnance Survey maps...

Pen
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

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