Re: Tarot de Marseille World Cards

41
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: I agree - it is not less likely that Piscina was looking at a vanished kind of Tarot. When he said Mondo, he might have meant there was really a "world" (cosmos) in the middle of those four creatures. And the four creatures mean that the World cannot be without religion.

In this case, Piscina is our only witness to such a Tarot. He seems to be our only witness to a Fool looking backwards into a mirror as well - but there are so many kinds of Fools, maybe I'm just forgetting one.

Ross
I assume, that it refers to this passage in Marco's translation.
In order to make it clear, you must know that it can be read, in a very pleasant and acute Comedy written by the very learned Intronati, of the famous Academy in Siena, not devoid of seriousness, of the amusing controversy among two very tight-fisted innkeepers: all people of any kind, when they had to travel, used to go to the Inn of the Mirror, but for a long time they had prefered to go to that of the Fool, more appropriate to their will and their actions. This is why, with great mystery, we see the Fool in the game of Tarot being represented in such a way that he looks behind towards a mirror, making fun of the fame of [9] the Mirror, that is lost among all people, who once used to go to that inn. This is why his face is so joyful, he rejoices and glories in the credit he receives, so that all men run behind him.
It seems, as if the text refers to a real comedy with adversary innkeepers in Piscina's time "by the Intronati of the famous academy of Siena", possibly using the content "one innkeeper with a Fool sign and the other with a Mirror sign". ...

????? Have you identified meanwhile this comedy ??????

Generally we've have in Germany a deeprooted literary height of connections between Fools and Mirrors in the period 1505 - 1520, during which the figure "Ulenspiegel" (Owl's mirror) found greater distribution ... especially active in this genre had been the controversy writer Thomas Murner, also active in playing card productions.

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This publication appears inside the following:

The very important Reuchlin / Pfefferkorn conflict, a most important preparation of the Reformatory movement, was involved in it. This started with the "Der Judenspiegel" (Cologne, 1507) ("Jew's mirror") of Pfefferkorn, to which he added a "Warnungsspiegel" (warning mirror), in which he pretended to be a friend of the Jews. But the scholar Reuchlin, deep involved in Hebraic studies, criticised him.
"Thus informed of Reuchlin's vote Pfefferkorn was greatly excited, and answered with Handspiegel [hand mirror](Mainz, 1511), in which he attacked Reuchlin unmercifully. Reuchlin complained to the Emperor Maximilian, and answered Pfefferkorn's attack with his Augenspiegel[eyes mirror], against which Pfefferkorn published his Brandspiegel[burning mirror]. In June 1513, both parties were silenced by the emperor. Pfefferkorn however published in 1514 a new polemic, Sturmglock, against both the Jews and Reuchlin. During the controversy between Reuchlin and the theologians of Cologne, Pfefferkorn was assailed in the Epistolæ obscurorum virorum by the young Humanists who espoused Reuchlin's cause. He replied with Beschirmung, or Defensio J. Pepericorni contra famosas et criminales obscurorum virorum epistolas (Cologne, 1516), Streitbüchlein (1517).[3] In 1520, Pope Leo X declared Reuchlin guilty with a condemnation of Augenspiegel, and Pfefferkorn wrote as an expression of his triumph Ein mitleidliche Klag (Cologne, 1521).
The Epistolæ obscurorum virorum, also called Dunkelmännerbriefe, which is a collection of at least 110 letters, as they were shown in 3 early editions, but actually, there were probably some more ... :-)
Sie enthielten im ersten Band 41 Briefe, denen in einem Anhang 7 weitere Briefe beigefügt wurden (2. Auflage 1516); eine zweite Sammlung mit 62 Briefen folgte 1517. Als Hauptverfasser des ersten Teils gilt der zum Erfurter Humanistenkreis um Mutianus Rufus gehörende Crotus Rubeanus. Der zweite Teil wird vor allem Ulrich von Hutten zugeschrieben, zum geringeren Teil auch Hermann von dem Busche in Leipzig."
It's a "flaming war" of its best against Pfefferkorn and the very conservative Cologne dominicans, long before the times of Internet.

If Jess Karlin could read them, he would have his fun with them. Here are some of them:

http://gutenberg.spiegel.de/?id=5&xid=5 ... 1#gb_found

The whole is politically very important and the preparation of the storm, which followed ... Martin Luther, the farmer's rebellion, the sacco di Roma. The various attempts to unite the Empire in a religious peace, which weren't successful.
The whole movement is based on the fact, that "Ship of Fools" became the dominant German bestseller since 1494, and the general advances and explosion of literature at the German (and international) bookmarket, a historic movement, which knows a lot of parallels with the explosion of the internet in modern times. Murner became one major motor of this Fool's movement, which naturally also had many other contributors.

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"Doktor Murner's Narrenbeschwörung", 1512
("Doctor Murner's Invocation of the Fool")

In the iconographic development Fool and Prudentia (traditionally with mirror) are naturally contrasts. In the figure of Ulenspiegel a figure was created, which was "double wise", once cause the owl in his name and second cause the mirror in his name.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarot de Marseille World Cards

42
Huck wrote:
It seems, as if the text refers to a real comedy with adversary innkeepers in Piscina's time "by the Intronati of the famous academy of Siena", possibly using the content "one innkeeper with a Fool sign and the other with a Mirror sign". ...

????? Have you identified meanwhile this comedy ??????
It seems, that the noted comedy should be
"Gl'ingannati"
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gl%27ingannati
also mentioned at
http://www.enotes.com/ocs-encyclopedia/glingannati
set in relation to Laelia, another comedy
http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/laelia/intro.html
which is regarded as a remake
http://books.google.com/books?id=lLI8AA ... q=&f=false
and still contains the two innkeepers
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarot de Marseille World Cards

43
Huck wrote:
Huck wrote:
It seems, as if the text refers to a real comedy with adversary innkeepers in Piscina's time "by the Intronati of the famous academy of Siena", possibly using the content "one innkeeper with a Fool sign and the other with a Mirror sign". ...

????? Have you identified meanwhile this comedy ??????
It seems, that the noted comedy should be
"Gl'ingannati"
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gl%27ingannati
also mentioned at
http://www.enotes.com/ocs-encyclopedia/glingannati
set in relation to Laelia, another comedy
http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/laelia/intro.html
which is regarded as a remake
http://books.google.com/books?id=lLI8AA ... q=&f=false
and still contains the two innkeepers
Yes, we found it quickly too. The relevant portion is here -

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Gl%27Ingannati

It is linked from the portion of Piscina's text here:
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Piscina_Discorso_2
(notes at the bottom, and linked in the text at the word "Comedy")

Ross
Image

Re: Tarot de Marseille World Cards

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Yes, we found it quickly too. The relevant portion is here -
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Gl%27Ingannati
It is linked from the portion of Piscina's text here:
http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Piscina_Discorso_2
(notes at the bottom, and linked in the text at the word "Comedy")
Ross
That's fine, I overlooked the link.

I summarized a few things:

********************
Spaniards - go to the "Rampino" (Hook ?)
Germans - go to "il Porco"
Neapolitans - go to "Amore"
Duke of Malfi - goes everwhere - "Sword", "Amore", "Fool", "Prudentia"
Fool: "The Milanese come here ; the Parmesans, the Placentians." "The French". And "most others"
Looking Glass: "The Venetians come to me, the Genoese, the Florentines". "3 old cardinals". "great doctors, learned brothers, academicians, virtuosi".

Sienese - prefer a private quarter

Fruella.
See who has most guests, you or I.
See where they are best treated.
Welcome, Signors: I have lodged you before. Do you not remember your Fruella? The only hotel for gentlemen of your degree.

L’ Agiato:
You shall have good apartments, a good fire, excellent beds, white crisp sheets; everything you have.
See who has most men of note.
See where there are most delicacies.
I say, that gentlemen do not care for heavy meats, but for what is light, good, and delicate.

*************

According this, there seem to be six (7) places:

1+2: Fool - Looking Glas ... both are Tarot cards, if I assume (5x14-theory), that "Prudentia" = "World", then it would just mean: "upper" and "lower" entry of the Tarot cards

3. Sword - is a known suit
4. Amore - is generally connected to cups, another suit
5. Rampino - the word knows no meanings in my wordbook, but it sounds like something which could open a door with force, so eventual is associated to the suit baton
6. Al Porco - is there an Italian asociation "Porco - money"?

Generally it seems, that Spaniards (in each case) are hated guests and (possibly) also Germans. As the sacco di Roma is not long ago (1531/32), it's interpretable as a reaction to this disastrious event.

7. The Sienese get private quarters - the theatre is shown in Siena, so its natural, that the onlookers have a prefered state.

Generally the Fool is "for everybody" , cause everybody is a Fool and especially the French (have lost in Pavia). The prizes are moderate. It seems, that people Milan, Parma and Piaczenza are not rich

The Looking Glas is for the high taste, but you have to be aware, that the prize is high. Venezians, Genovese and Florentines have enough money (trade republics).

The Neapolitans have a special interest in brothels ("Amore").

The title "duke of Malfi" seems to belong to the Piccolomini family. One poet of the family (Alessandro, philosoph, born 1508, in 1531 he is 23 years old) is especially active in the accademia Gl'Intronati (translated as "thunder-stricken"), which produced the work (or made the theatre) ... is he perhaps even the anonymous author? He's perhaps too young, but perhaps another member of his family helped him and perhaps had sponsor interests.
*********

What do you think?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Fool with a mirror

45
Huck wrote:
"Doktor Murner's Narrenbeschwörung", 1512
("Doctor Murner's Invocation of the Fool")

In the iconographic development Fool and Prudentia (traditionally with mirror) are naturally contrasts. In the figure of Ulenspiegel a figure was created, which was "double wise", once cause the owl in his name and second cause the mirror in his name.
Thank you Huck!
It took me a while to find this detail in your images :) Quite interesting.

Marco
Attachments
fool_mirror.jpg fool_mirror.jpg Viewed 11179 times 58.97 KiB

Re: Missale 1593

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About the "Ulenspiegel" ... it's not clear, that Murner had been the editor of an already existing lower German basic text, it's only suspected - but with good reason.
The printer Grüninger in Strassburg was an early friend of Murner and later they occasionally cooperated. In 1502 the famous Wimpheling-Murner conflict started with the result, that a text from Murner (attacking Wimpheling), printed by Grüninger, was not allowed to be distributed and finally even the books were destroyed (about 600). No author, no publisher, loves such things. This early alliance of some hate between the both against the Strassburg literary establishment caused the conflictary Murner-personality.
In 1510/1511 Grüninger made the first edition, the second more successful was made in 1515. So in 1512 Ulenspiegel was already in Murner's mind (and it appears in the design of the Narrenbeschörung - if he was the editor or not, but it's very natural, that he at least participated - and the Ulenspiegel itself was probably indirectly already stimulated by the fact, that Pfeffercorn used the "Spiegel" motif in massive manner already since 1507.
Humanists had trouble with the conservative Cologne Dominicans - this started already with Celtis in 1479, and was proceeded by Hutten later. For both these "differences" already occurred in their time as students.

How Murner influenced Tarot ... :-) ... Kenneth Mackenzie, a sort of father figure for the Golden Dawn, translated before his astonishing esoterical career nothing else than the Ulenspiegel (in the 50's of 19th century). After his death he left in his papers a few notes, which caused for the Tarot world, that the Fool was associated to the Hebrew letter Aleph, so changing everything in the order of Eliphas Levi, which had already influenced French occultists. So a real foolish war was prepared, in which the French order fought the English, proceeding for more than 100 years.

More:
http://autorbis.net/tarot/biography/tar ... enzie.html
"Kenneth Mackenzie was seven years old when his parents settled in London in 1840. Furthermore, he must have been bilingual in English and German. A passage from the Preface to his Tyll Eulenspiegel translation, published by Trubner & Co. in 1859 as The Marvellous Adventures and Rare Conceits of Master Tyll Owlglass, indicates that he read German at a very early age. 'I well remember how, as a very little boy, I made the friendship of the [book's] lithe though clumsy hero', he wrote. In the Preface to the second edition, dated Christmas Eve 1859, he mentioned that 'it was almost the first book I ever possessed, and I remember to this day the circumstances under which it was given to me.'
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Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Missale 1593

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Thanks for the Till Eulenspiegel and Mackenzie stuff Huck. I hadn't followed it on trionfi.com

It's a shame Mackenzie wrote in the 19th century, and had to omit some of the tales because of their bawdy nature. I'm trying to find a complete edition.

For all the languages it was translated into, strangely I can't see an Italian translation - neither mentioned on the web nor in Mackenzie's bibliographic list in Appendix I of his edition. Is there still not one?

(edited to add - some Italians can be recognized speaking about him, explaining his name as "civetta = Eulen" and "specchio = Spiegel" but no translation cited yet.)
Image

Re: Missale 1593

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Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Thanks for the Till Eulenspiegel and Mackenzie stuff Huck. I hadn't followed it on trionfi.com

It's a shame Mackenzie wrote in the 19th century, and had to omit some of the tales because of their bawdy nature. I'm trying to find a complete edition.

For all the languages it was translated into, strangely I can't see an Italian translation - neither mentioned on the web nor in Mackenzie's bibliographic list in Appendix I of his edition. Is there still not one?
I think, that it is a complete edition noted at the website (at the picture-snippet) and not a bad one, also interesting in its historic details ...
http://books.google.com/books?id=KrcBAA ... 59&f=false

... or is it mentioned, that it is incomplete?

The article is already rather old, maybe short after books.google.com became of importance.

German Wikipedia mentions a Latin edition for 16th century, not an Italian (though it doesn't name and date it). Perhaps an early Italian version was suppressed ? Too dangerous literature from Germany? It's also strange, that Murner (who in the Protestantic movement became astonishingly one of the strongest and most attacked fighter for Catholicism never stood to his authorship as editor of the Ulenspiegel - although all matters point to his participation). Perhaps he was advised to keep this in silence ... and probably a lot of texts disappeared from the surface forever in the 1520s ... and also in the 1550s.
And nude art disappeared ... and catholic art disappeared. There was a lot of dark activity ... and life was dangerous.

In google.it it seems, as if the much later Coster version is much more popular today in Italy.

The mentioned theatre game (1531) seems to mirror (in disguised form) that Ulenspiegel was known.

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The ghost of the fool swallows Murner ... what did the anonymous poet wish to say?

Re: Missale 1593

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Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: think the important thing is that it is obvious - he is squeezing his nipple in the nursing gesture, he has a beard (so we know he's Christ).
Is the beard enough ? what about Wilgefortis ?
Then maybe she was a misinterpretation of a christ in the first place... but we can tell that identifying a christ wasn't easier in the XIVth century than it is now, and maybe the job wasn't more obvious for cardmakers.
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:However, we have seen that pendulosity is in the eye of the beholder. Whether they are the milk-filled breasts of a woman or androgyne, or an attempt to present highly defined masculine pectorals, rests with the imagination of the observer in many cases.
But not all cases, in the Noblet for instance we can compare breasts on feminine figures (on the Sun, the Star) to those on the World card, they are definitely the same, and not a bad case of pareidolia (I was longing to use that word from the moment I learned it this morning - sorry ! ).

Re: Missale 1593

50
Lorredan wrote: I keep saying - but obviously no one believes me- it would be blasphemy to show Christ in cards- but not Saint John.
You can say the printers were ignorant and careless- but they were not. They had to be very careful of the images they printed.
Hello Lorredan,
I would like to know more of what makes you think that representing Christ on a card would have been a problem, while representing Saint John would have been OK. This is not clear to me. I do not have particular opinions about what would have been seen as blasphemous, but I think that Christian images would have been common also in everyday objects.

Marco