Re: Tarot de Marseille World Cards

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marco wrote:As noted by Ross, Piscina makes reference to the four evangelists.
the Author has placed the image [or the "figure"] of the world in the middle of these four Holy Evangelists
If Piscina was looking at a World card similar to Vieville, he was interpreting the human figure at the centre of the card as the World. The other possibility (less likely, in my opinion) is that Piscina was looking at a card in which something else representing the World (for instance a circle as in the Visconti Sforza) was placed in the middle of the Four Evangelists.

it must be said that some of Piscina's interpretations of the trumps are quite strange. For instance, he speaks of the hanged-man as a suicide.

Marco
It does seem very odd. He names the animals, no doubt he sees them, but he freely mentions Christ in the same area, but doesn't name him as the "world", if he was looking at Vieville, I can't imagine him naming the evangelists and then not making a big deal about the Jesus.

With this description:
" Now, the Author has placed the image of the world in the middle of these four Holy Evangelists, in order to teach us that the world cannot be without religion, whose precept has been written by these Holy Evangelists"
This doesn't sound like Christ to me, or any other figure, it sounds as you suggest and doubt... an image of the world (as globe or city in circle) surrounded by the evangelists. "...the world cannot be without religion, whose precept has been written by these Holy Evangelists", I can't imagine this is Christ being described as "world". Reading it as ".. Christ cannot be without religion, whose precept has been written by these Holy Evangelists" is just so wrong.

I'm doubting this is the typical Tarot de Marseille image he is describing.

As for the comment about the hanged man, it makes me think of Giotto, and his hanged "Despair":
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Re: Missale 1593

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Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: This author also says that it is only one of three such figures known in the world (quite an assertion, but I can't disprove it).
Send them a Noblet. ;;)

Really though, thanks Ross for finding those. I looked for a while yesterday and found similar, but not nearly as good examples as this.

The Belgian figure is just surreal. I don't blame the nuns for having it repainted!!

Re: Missale 1593

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robert wrote:
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: This author also says that it is only one of three such figures known in the world (quite an assertion, but I can't disprove it).
Send them a Noblet. ;;)

Really though, thanks Ross for finding those. I looked for a while yesterday and found similar, but not nearly as good examples as this.

The Belgian figure is just surreal. I don't blame the nuns for having it repainted!!
I think the important thing is that it is obvious - he is squeezing his nipple in the nursing gesture, he has a beard (so we know he's Christ). The Noblet doesn't have this gesture, and given the medium - woodcut or naive painting on tile - those round boobs could be more rationally interpreted as well-defined pecs.

The nursing gesture was sometimes used in images of Christ, squeezing the wound on his side as if it were a nipple, but instead spurting blood. Bynum has several illustrations of the concept, sometimes with a mirror-image of Mary showing her breast in the same way (in "Holy Feast and Holy Fast"). None with an androgynous Christ though.
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Re: Tarot de Marseille World Cards

34
marco wrote:As noted by Ross, Piscina makes reference to the four evangelists.
the Author has placed the image [or the "figure"] of the world in the middle of these four Holy Evangelists
If Piscina was looking at a World card similar to Vieville, he was interpreting the human figure at the centre of the card as the World. The other possibility (less likely, in my opinion) is that Piscina was looking at a card in which something else representing the World (for instance a circle as in the Visconti Sforza) was placed in the middle of the Four Evangelists.
I also find it strange, some of Piscina's descriptions. Although the pack is a C order, he mixes the rules in (putting the Angel higher than the World), he makes the Fool look backwards into a mirror, puts the "world" among the four evanglists, etc.

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S-Series (pseudo-Mantegna), Prima Causa, from the Trionfi.com museum,
http://trionfi.com/i/mantegna-tarocchi/index2.php


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I don't know whether to think there was once a Tarot with this kind of image in it, in the middle of the 16th century, or whether Piscina is really interpreting Christ as "the World" in his Discourse.
Last edited by Ross G. R. Caldwell on 22 Oct 2009, 08:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Missale 1593

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Pen wrote:Could 'The World' possibly be an abbreviation of 'The Light of the World'?
There is the world, and the Evangelists who are, as are all called by G-d, 'the light of the world.'

Matthew
14: Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel; but on a candlestick, and it givcth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

You-are like to a Light illustrating the whole Globe of the Earth , wherefore it behoves you to take care that your Doctrine be not obfcur'd with the leaft Cloud of Vice or Error. 'Twill be impoffible for you not to be taken notice of, and you will refemble a City feated upon an Eminence, and confpicuous afar off. And this indeed you ought to be acquainted with, fince it is for this very purpofe that you have been called by God. - As men light a lamp to be of ufe to all the Family, not to ubfcure the Light of it by covering it with a Bufhiel, and by fruftrating the very end it was defignd for : So fhine out by the Light of your Doctrine, and a holy Life, that men obferving your Words and Aftions to be conformable to vour Profeffion, may praife your heavenly Father, and give thanks to him for fending fuch men into the World to difpel the Darkness it was involv'd in.

14: Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hid.

The four evangelists surrounding the image of a city would reference the light of the world: the City in Triumphal processions was often personified in the allegorical figure of a 'verge', a maid. In that respect the image of the City or the allegorical maid are cognate figures. For myself I still consider that it is far more likely that an obscure allegory is likely to be converted into something more conventional (such as the association of Christ with evangelist and mandorla), than the other way round.
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:
By contrast, here is a real androgyne Christ, made for the Convent of the Hôpital de Notre Dame à la Rose in Lessines, Belgium, in the late 16th century (or so) -

The author of this page on the history of N.D. à la Rose says that this was changed very soon after being painted because it disturbed the nuns, with the female features of Christ being altered to a more masculine look, and was only rediscovered in the course of restoration this century.
Are the historians positively sure the picture of Christ wasn't painted over a previous picture of a woman? Is the revealed painting underneath all they have to go on, or is there some documentation to endorse their speculation on the 'disturbance caused to nuns by a feminine Christ?' If they took away the rest of the top layer (head of christ and attending figures) would it not be possible there is completely different underpainting, that of nuns attending a sick woman perhaps (it was a hospital after all).

(The hospital we may note as an example like that of MaisonDieu connected with the concept of purgatory, founded "to provide for prayer for the eternal rest of the soul of her husband... In actual fact, the hospital created solidarity on two levels: on the one hand between the benefactors of the institution and the poor people who were housed there, on the other hand, between the spiritual elevation of the suffering of the sick and the moral destitution of the well-off donors.")
Last edited by SteveM on 22 Oct 2009, 08:44, edited 3 times in total.

Re: Missale 1593

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SteveM wrote: Are the historians positively sure the picture of Christ wasn't painted over a previous picture of a woman? Is the revealed painting underneath all they have to go on, or is there some documentation to endorse their speculation on the 'disturbance caused to nuns by a feminine Christ?' If they took away the rest of the top layer (head of christ and attending figures) would it not be possible there is completely different underpainting, that of nuns attending a sick woman perhaps (it was a hospital after all).

(The hospital we may note as an example like that of MaisonDieu connected with the concept of purgatory, founded 'to provide for prayer for the eternal rest of the soul of her husband... In actual fact, the hospital created solidarity on two levels: on the one hand between the benefactors of the institution and the poor people who were housed there, on the other hand, between the spiritual elevation of the suffering of the sick and the moral destitution of the well-off donors.)
This painting is apparently paired with another, of a Lactating Virgin (into the mouth of St. Bernard) - which is a kind of parallelism you see in some of the pictures in Bynum. Except in all of her examples, Jesus is "lactating" the wound in his side, not a breast. I would guess the guess the gesture of the reclinging figure, and the clear identy of the prominent women around the figure being Mary, Magdalene, perhaps Martha (or another Mary?) really make it the "Lamentations around Christ" rather than just a sick person or a saint.

Here is the quote from the website above:
De bien étranges tableaux

Outre les oeuvres illustrant l’un ou l’autre précepte religieux, on trouve deux toiles du 16e siècle pour le moins insolites. L’une d’elles représente saint Bernard buvant le lait que la Vierge (ou plutôt sa statue visiblement animée) fait jaillir de son sein (!). L’autre nous montre Jésus, barbu, mais au corps de femme (avec seins et hanches) et entouré de prieures («Lamentation autour du Christ»). Ce serait là l’un des trois uniques exemplaires connus au monde, dépeignant un Christ hermaphrodite, sans doute en tant qu’incarnation de l’humanité (homme et femme). En réalité, ces représentations devaient déranger les religieuses et l’on avait dès lors tout simplement couvert la poitrine de Marie et repeint un Jésus plus masculin. C’est en restaurant les tableaux que l’on découvrit les originaux sous les couches de couleurs plus tardives…


Very strange paintings

Besides works illustrating some religious precept, one finds two canvasses of the 16th century which are odd to say the least. One of them shows St. Bernard drinking the milk that the Virgin (or rather her visibly animated statue) is making to spurt from her breast (!). The other shows us Jesus, bearded, but with the body of a woman (with breasts and hips) and surrounded by people praying (“Lamentations around Christ”). This would be one of the three unique examples known to the world depicting an hermaphrodite Christ, without doubt as the incarnation of humanity (male and female). Actually, these representations would have disturbed the nuns and from then they simply covered the chest of Mary and repainted a more masculine Jesus. It was while restoring these paintings that the originals were rediscovered under later layers of colour…
The author doesn't mention how he knows that the imagery was disturbing... maybe he assumes it, since it was repainted. On the other hand, I might be conflating this with other information I got on the painting when I was looking two days ago, which if my memory is correct says something about a commission specifying androgynous features... (I'll try to find it again).
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On androgyny (1491)

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The images Ross posted seem to indicate that it's risky to trust our eyes when it comes to evalulation of the content in the work of early craftsmen/artisans. The whole business of looking is pretty subjective anyway, and there's always that tendency to make the image reinforce the theory. I think that's what happened with Wald.

Another example below, with a link to the story of Naaman below that.

https://imgur.com/lBxZDBJ


http://www.journeywithjesus.net/Essays/20090209JJ.shtml

Wonderful sequence of paintings Lorredan - the Leonardo always creeps me out though...

Pen
Last edited by Pen on 19 Dec 2017, 18:27, edited 2 times in total.
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy...

Re: Tarot de Marseille World Cards

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Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: I don't know whether to think there was once a Tarot with this kind of image in it, in the middle of the 16th century, or whether Piscina is really interpreting Christ as "the World" in his Discourse.
Thank you Ross.
I had not thought of Lazzarelli and the pseudo-Mantegna. On the basis of those examples, I now think that the first option (a tarot world card similar to the Prima Causa) is not less likely than the second one.

Marco

Re: On androgyny

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Pen wrote:The images Ross posted seem to indicate that it's risky to trust our eyes when it comes to evalulation of the content in the work of early craftsmen/artisans. The whole business of looking is pretty subjective anyway, and there's always that tendency to make the image reinforce the theory. I think that's what happened with Wald.

Another example below, with a link to the story of Naaman below that.
Interesting. Yes, I agree - Naaman could be taken as a woman, except for the explicit text above, and perhaps the lack of pendulosity in the exposed breast. However, we have seen that pendulosity is in the eye of the beholder. Whether they are the milk-filled breasts of a woman or androgyne, or an attempt to present highly defined masculine pectorals, rests with the imagination of the observer in many cases.

Ross
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Re: Tarot de Marseille World Cards

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marco wrote:
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: I don't know whether to think there was once a Tarot with this kind of image in it, in the middle of the 16th century, or whether Piscina is really interpreting Christ as "the World" in his Discourse.
Thank you Ross.
I had not thought of Lazzarelli and the pseudo-Mantegna. On the basis of those examples, I now think that the first option (a tarot world card similar to the Prima Causa) is not less likely than the second one.

Marco
I agree - it is not less likely that Piscina was looking at a vanished kind of Tarot. When he said Mondo, he might have meant there was really a "world" (cosmos) in the middle of those four creatures. And the four creatures mean that the World cannot be without religion.

In this case, Piscina is our only witness to such a Tarot. He seems to be our only witness to a Fool looking backwards into a mirror as well - but there are so many kinds of Fools, maybe I'm just forgetting one.

Since Piscina's is a C order, it is easy to take for granted that it was like a surviving exemplar, like the Tarot de Marseille or Vieville. But there is so much that has been lost, and so much we just don't know.

Ross
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