Re: I would like to know.........

#21
I gave up in 1991, Debra. On balance, well worth it. I smoked about 50 a day, plus cigars, plus a pipe when I could keep it lit. But I am now about 3.5 stone heavier, and eat things that never used to interest me. The money saved is significant, and I no longer cough for ten minutes when I wake up. I should really take more exercise, but all my sedentary interests just take up too much time.

Re: I would like to know.........

#22
OK, I have been unable to scan the tiny picture upon a postcard- the size is aprox 10mm x 20- so you might imagine my problem.
I have found some facts though. The date is 1580 not 1530 as I had thought (or wrongly magnified from the postcard)
It appears in the very expensive portfolio by Jerome Brooks called Tobacco:It's History-Illustrated by the Books and Manuscripts in the Library Of George Arents. The price cited was $2500- I love Tarot History but not enough to fork that out. :p
There is another book called The History of Smoking written in 1931 by the very grand moniker- Count Egon Ceasar Corti who gives the argument of why the printing press was the driving force behind the use of Tobacco in Europe and it's so called medicinal use- and the connection with playing card printing.
You can read Peter C Mancell's Tales Tobacco Told in the 16th Century Europe
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_q ... _n9460488/
Yet none of those plants attracted as much attention among European printers as tobacco. From its initial reception as an herb used in Native American rituals to its promotion as a cure for all sorts of diseases to its eventual condemnation as a weed that caused moral turpitude, tobacco elicited a startling range of deeply felt responses in early modern Europe.
One such magical remedy was that Tobacco cured syphilis- which brings me to the earliest Tarot de Marseille like deck called the Noblet :-? What is that appendage in the left hand? Apparently there were pamphlets in France, railing against drunkards, with an images linking smoking to drinking and playing cards.(1600-1610)

I do not know why the Tobacco Merchant may have become the LLBatelevr in 1650 (or perhaps a little earlier) but it may explain the green thing in the sack on the Hadar reproduction- the knife that appears as common to Tarot de Marseille type cards. it certainly explains the emphasis on the plant in the ground. Basteleur = baastel" which means a conjurer's trick. Life is all smoke and mirrors maybe.Or maybe that Tarot was one of earliest spin doctors approach to product advertising. Maybe it is smoking God.(Hallucinating) Interesting though, I think.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: I would like to know.........

#24
I'm still not sure how this can explain the Visconti Bateleur? We've a model for the Tarot de Marseille in the Visconti, and it exists before tobacco comes to Europe. If tobacco came earlier, then I think I'd give this more consideration, but do we have to disregard the Visconti to explain the Tarot de Marseille as a "tobacconist"?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: I would like to know.........

#25
No. The "montebank" or "magician" or "trifler" or whatever it is may have changed meaning over time. If the fella with the dice was less visible than the fella with the tobacco, the one may have supplanted the other in popular imagination, or the images may have merged. And there are other images in the Visconti that are quite different than the Noblet and subsequent woodblock decks.

Hey, manatees became mermaids.

Italian tobacco shops also sell salt--sali & tabacchi. I'm still puzzling over the Visconti's ...whatever it is. Cake? Hat? Bowl of salt?

Re: I would like to know.........

#26
Well I have two comments.

The Visconti, I reckon is a Straw Hat on the table- In fact I am more than sure it is a straw hat. Of course others will not agree with me. I think he has an exaggerated writing implement in his hand and I think a case could be made for it to be a Mercury association of writing and communication. He is remarkably like a hand painted first page to a Arthurian tale
of the time- that was the teller of the Tale or the narrator. He is also remarkably like Sforza in his Soldiering days with his red beard and all.
So that same Mercury association could be made for a Merchant in the Tarot de Marseille. I have no problem with the Merchant aspect at all- just that I do not think it is a Juggler/Magician/ sleight of Hand- Flim Flam man maybe- snake oil salesman even- but not a magician. For a start Games and tricks were part of Court life - but not Magic as in conjuring. I find that thought fairly odd for a Catholic background. Conjuring had a whole different aspect that was frowned upon. I think the term is theurgic Magic versus Goetic magic. Magic is kind of the opposite of religion ( but to me they have much in common) and Magic was seen back then as secretive and subversive. I have also a feeling that Robert and I disagree on that Tarot is a sort of pun and joke on the conditions of the time. Tobacco Merchants would have bought a smile to the card playing public and I can see why.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: I would like to know.........

#28
Thanks for that Debra!
That is why I do not think the Card Number One Le Bateleur is a Juggler if you take the Christian viewpoint of the time. So you cannot have it both ways- if it shows a Christian type sequence it would not show a Juggler I think.
Magic was not accepted into philosophy, being an overtly false profession. It teaches iniquity and malice, denying the truth and truly injuring souls. It seduces them from divine religion, commends the culture of demons, implants the ways of corruption, and impels them to do what is impious and wrong....... Jugglers (praestigi) are those who, through demonic art, trick the human seness with fantastic illusions.
Whereas Mercury could well be depicted by a Merchant or a writer- hence the cobbler in other decks etc.

~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

The Juggler and the King

#29
St Victor of Hugh is very early for our Tarot de Marseille Bateleur - Discoverie Of Witchcraft Written by Reginald Scot in 1584 in which 'demonic powers' are treated as jugglers tricks (rather than visa versa as in St Victor) is perhaps a little closer.

Here is an old Jewish tale of Hormin the Juggler:

Said Rabbu bar Bar-Chanah: I saw Hormin the son of Lillith running along the battlements of the city wall of Mechuza. A cavalry man below, riding on an animal, could not keep up with him.
Once two mules were saddled for Hormin and stood on the two sides of the River Donag. He jumped from one to the other while holding two cups of wine in his hands, pouring from one to the other without a drop falling to the earth.
That was the day when things “rise to the heavens and descend to the depths” [Tehillim 107:26]; finally the King’s men heard of Hormin’s doings and put him to death.
(Bava Basra 73a-b)

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Py77 ... 05&f=false
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Le Jongleur de Notre Dame

#30
The medieval French legend of the Juggler of Our Lady first appears in a poem by Goutier de Coinci called 'Les Miracles de la Sainte Vierge', dating from the 1220s. As well as being a common subject of mystery plays, it has been retold many times up to modern times in literature, poems, opera and children's books. Here for example an operata by Peter Davies:

http://www.chesternovello.com/Defau...rkId_3041=11062

"The original story concerns a juggler who joins a monastery, but who is incompetent at studies, singing or any craft or skill suitable to the cloister. When the monks each bring a gift to the statue of the Virgin on the Virgin's birthday (a statue, a prayer, a missal) he can bring nothing, but he creeps alone at night into the chapel and performs his juggling act before the statue. Discovered by the monks, he is about to be reproved by the abbot when the statue of Mary speaks, saying that the juggler's gift is acceptable to her."

The moral of the tale, as presented in mystery plays, was that even the smallest gift (though nothing more than a trifle or bagatelle), given devoutly, is worth more than all the treasures offered in vain glory.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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