Re: I would like to know.........

#12
I really like the image of the tobacconist Lorredan. You're right in seeing lots of visual similarities. Yet, we're still left with the fact that the Visconti is older than when tobacco arrived in Europe. So what would explain, if I'm reading you correctly, the Tarot de Marseille using a tobacconist as a model rather than a magician?

One thing that occurred to me when I looked at the image that I posted, and then at the Noblet, was that the Heri (which is the deck I most want to see in good scans, please god, someone share them!) Bateleur holds what seems like a horn or something in his hand.. but if it were related to a tobacconist, maybe it would be a pipe!


Image
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: I would like to know.........

#13
http://www.tobacco.org/resources/histor ... ory16.html

It is noted that there could have been an underground use of tobacco- before it was noted by officialdom- but you are right -like paper production and Tarot- a card could not have been made before Tobacco was in Europe.
As to the Visconti- I have always thought it was a special case as a family history displayed as a game- it is not as if those cards became mass produced.
There must have been an 'Ur' deck of some sort- I do not believe the game was designed by either the Visconti or Sforza families- but adapted by them in the images. We also have the Classic Italian deck- later of course, where the Bateleur is a cobbler of sorts. I am reminded of Kwaw's investigation into the history of the words and a bagatelle mean a purveyor of small things etc. For me personally, I have always thought there is a deep punning or poking borax at the Church within Tarot- street humour that is more apparent in Tarot de Marseille types than the hand painted Visconti. Most likely the soldiers and sailors that used cards were irreverent and the Visconti was a sort of Holifying of the cards- after all if they were personal history for a gift or a celebration. You would not use Street humour for your family.
I guess I think it is adaption like Monopoly- what is recognised here is not recognised there- so they make boards particular to countries.
The Noblet was produced the same year that the Pope Innocent X's Bull against smoking in St Peter's, Rome. Within 10 years the next Pope was allotting out tobacco farms to his friends and family (Simony) The common man knew all this and how it had been for them for hundreds of years. It was a Vice railed against- but it was the monks who took snuff to China. Double standards and Tarot images alluded to this. It is interesting to note in the time line that Italy is not mentioned- and yet in Venice and the Ottoman empire smoking was well known.The Ottomans used a type of Hookah to smoke- a wand like device.
Have not we wondered why the emphasis on a three leafed plant in the Tarot de Marseille- I guess the images slowly morphed along the way.They were still making cigarette cards post 2nd WW, I sent some to Debra that are the street venders of London. The cigarette companies give instructions on Happy Families type games to play with them- as well as collecting full sets. Maybe Tarot was the complete set and all those others like Mitelli were not :))

[quote=Debra]Lorredan I can't scan either as scanning programs seem designed to foil me. How about a photograph of the thing? [/quote]
~x( followed by =)) =))
I will wait for one of the kids with savvy. I have all my photo's in my camera, when they should be in a file.
Me :-? ....stupid?
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: I would like to know.........

#15
Lorredan wrote: As to the Visconti- I have always thought it was a special case as a family history displayed as a game- it is not as if those cards became mass produced.
There must have been an 'Ur' deck of some sort- I do not believe the game was designed by either the Visconti or Sforza families- but adapted by them in the images.
I remain unsure. I suspect that they copied a deck that already existed. Currently, I'm leaning towards Bologna as the original pattern and then that passing to Milan where the Visconti's adapted it to their royal tastes. I'm less convinced than many that the Visconti is showing family members everywhere on the cards, but I do think they made them "Visconti". However, a few changes in the wind and I could be back to thinking that the decks were created in Milan by the Viscontis.

Lorredan wrote:For me personally, I have always thought there is a deep punning or poking borax at the Church within Tarot- street humour that is more apparent in Tarot de Marseille types than the hand painted Visconti. Most likely the soldiers and sailors that used cards were irreverent and the Visconti was a sort of Holifying of the cards- after all if they were personal history for a gift or a celebration. You would not use Street humour for your family.
I guess I think it is adaption like Monopoly- what is recognised here is not recognised there- so they make boards particular to countries.
I think the monopoly analogy is a pretty good one! Slight variations in rules (do you get the money in Free Parking if you land on it?), different names for the properties.. but the main play of the game, the structure, the look and feel, remain in tact as it travels to new regions.

I'm coming to almost the opposite conclusion regarding religion. I'm finding more and more that the Tarot, and especially the Tarot de Marseille, is not religiously irreverent at all. I'm pretty convinced it's Jesus Christ surrounded by the four evangelists on the World Card, following Judgement with a resurrection, I don't find anything irreverent about the Pope. These are all strongly religious images. The only real potential I see is in the Popess, and if seen as a "Bishop", "Faith", "Doctor or canon law", "The Church" or probably even other ways, I think it still works. Overall though, I think we've got a world of fools, tricksters, villians, popes, and emperors.. and we've got some virtues to help us and some trials to tempt us, but eventually we all have to face up to the end of the sequence, Judgement Day and Christ Resurrected.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: I would like to know.........

#16
robert wrote: I'm coming to almost the opposite conclusion regarding religion. I'm finding more and more that the Tarot, and especially the Tarot de Marseille, is not religiously irreverent at all. I'm pretty convinced it's Jesus Christ surrounded by the four evangelists on the World Card, following Judgement with a resurrection, I don't find anything irreverent about the Pope. These are all strongly religious images. The only real potential I see is in the Popess, and if seen as a "Bishop", "Faith", "Doctor or canon law", "The Church" or probably even other ways, I think it still works. Overall though, I think we've got a world of fools, tricksters, villians, popes, and emperors.. and we've got some virtues to help us and some trials to tempt us, but eventually we all have to face up to the end of the sequence, Judgement Day and Christ Resurrected.
I find this odd for several reasons- although I agree that Tarot is a world of Fools/Tricksters/Villians etc.
Firstly at the time of Tarot's origins it was extremely unlawful to use sacred images in secular things like printed matter or secular images in sacred places- mostly in churches. People got around this by placing their images within supposedly sacred images- a subterfuge if you will. So you will see a patron posing as a saint for example. The Medici, to get their images into a chapel had to get a dispensation- and it was only in their private chapel. The exception was tomb decoration or cemetery decoration.You can see Roman Gods and Pagan images on tombstones, or a Patron on his horse inside a Church. So I find it odd that the image of Jesus or Christ Resurrected would appear on cards for game playing. The only excuse I could find would be that these images may have been appropriated from the printers floor- images perhaps initially going to used in another manner.
Secondly, although I have not made a thorough study at all- it seems that if the images were blasphemous that would have been the main thrust of their censure by the Church. It seems as if the game playing as in Dicing , was the main concern. In the case of Dicing- it was usually the playing outside the church(bouncing the dice against the church walls for one) and amusement value on Holy Days that seemed to be the problem. It would seem that the Church would have come down hard on Blasphemy images used for gambling and the like. I am more inclined to believe that the World card in Tarot de Marseille is more likely a humanising of the Mappa Mundi- but that does not explain Judgement of course- which to me is an odd ball card.
~Lorredan
PS I have sent said tiny image to family to enlarge and email back to me- will post in due course. I am now convinced that the model for Tarot de Marseille like card Bateleur is based on the Tobacco Merchant or street seller. The Visconti especially the Pierpont Morgan Magician/Bateleur/Jugglerfor me is based on a story teller character about to write. The Jar could possibly a talc shaker to dry the ink. Maybe. Wish I knew for sure. It looks so like the young Sforza.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: I would like to know.........

#17
Lorredan wrote:I find this odd for several reasons- although I agree that Tarot is a world of Fools/Tricksters/Villians etc.
Firstly at the time of Tarot's origins it was extremely unlawful to use sacred images in secular things like printed matter or secular images in sacred places- mostly in churches. People got around this by placing their images within supposedly sacred images- a subterfuge if you will. So you will see a patron posing as a saint for example. The Medici, to get their images into a chapel had to get a dispensation- and it was only in their private chapel. The exception was tomb decoration or cemetery decoration.You can see Roman Gods and Pagan images on tombstones, or a Patron on his horse inside a Church. So I find it odd that the image of Jesus or Christ Resurrected would appear on cards for game playing. The only excuse I could find would be that these images may have been appropriated from the printers floor- images perhaps initially going to used in another manner.
I'm not familiar enough with the history to be able to know the accuracy or your view, nor if there were exceptions. What I do know is that the four, haloed evangelists on the Tarot de Marseille World card should be a pretty strong indication that we are dealing with a Biblical figure. The similarities to Christ have always been apparent to me, but the usual argument against that was the nakedness of the figure. We're now seeing a growing collection of images that are similar to the one on the Tarot de Marseille, and I find it hard when considering the Vieville, Noblet and Dodal, and accepting the iconography, not to accept an image of Jesus Christ as the figure in the center... especially on the Vieville where the figure is haloed as well as the evangelists. Of course, if someone has an image of a more likely haloed figure surrounded by the four evangelists that is a better match, I am truly open to changing my mind (I do it all the time!).
Lorredan wrote:Secondly, although I have not made a thorough study at all- it seems that if the images were posting.php?mode=quote&f=12&p=4445#blasphemous that would have been the main thrust of their censure by the Church. It seems as if the game playing as in Dicing , was the main concern. In the case of Dicing- it was usually the playing outside the church(bouncing the dice against the church walls for one) and amusement value on Holy Days that seemed to be the problem. It would seem that the Church would have come down hard on Blasphemy images used for gambling and the like. I am more inclined to believe that the World card in Tarot de Marseille is more likely a humanising of the Mappa Mundi- but that does not explain Judgement of course- which to me is an odd ball card.
~Lorredan
PS I have sent said tiny image to family to enlarge and email back to me- will post in due course. I am now convinced that the model for Tarot de Marseille like card Bateleur is based on the Tobacco Merchant or street seller. The Visconti especially the Pierpont Morgan Magician/Bateleur/Jugglerfor me is based on a story teller character about to write. The Jar could possibly a talc shaker to dry the ink. Maybe. Wish I knew for sure. It looks so like the young Sforza.
Yes, we also have to take the Judgement card into consideration, and its placement in the Tarot de Marseille sequence. We're talking about Judgement Day here, another Biblical reference, and Gabriel blowing his trumpet, aren't we?

I don't know why tarot cards would have religions figures on them; but to me, I'm increasingly convinced that the images were not satirical.

Don't we also have a Visconti card with God on it?

Maybe the cards were given a religious character to get past the church's concerns about playing with cards? Aren't there examples of tarot being excluded from bans??

It's my impression that the Bagatto mean "a trifle", and that part of that idea is that he would be someone who would sell trivial things. When I see the Visconti bagatto, he has most of the iconography that we would identify as the tarot Magician. I suppose that maybe after tobacco arrived in the 1500s, perhaps the "bagatto" of the time would have started selling it as well as his other trinkets? If so, I can imagine how the Tarot de Marseille would have adapted some of that into the imagery, but I'm not sure we need that to get from the Visconti to the the Tarot de Marseille? Although, I think it is pretty cool if it did. It would explain why the Cary Sheet magician doesn't match the Tarot de Marseille, and it would also date both.. Cary Sheet before tobacco is introduced, Tarot de Marseille after. I'm just sort of surprised to think of the Tarot de Marseille as being that late, I would have thought it had been earlier!
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: I would like to know.........

#18
OK Robert I have tried to look at this from another point of view-
Is there any connection between Tobacco and Salvation?

Well it was thought that tobacco smoke prevented or protected against the plague.
Some Taverns were called tabgies in England and tabacchis in Italy because it was thought you magically 'drank the smoke' and became intoxicated- and therefore in English it was known as Sotweed.
The Church led the opposition to tobacco as it was a distraction from Holy objectives and a source of earthly delight, that it challenged Church teachings of forgoing earthly pleasure for rewards in the next life. It became an instrument of Heresy and a threat to Church power; and like gambling a loss of revenue. In the 16th century it was a Mortal sin to use tobacco. It was linked to the Devil- there are stories that grew about the Devil defecating and out sprouted tobacco.
This Pagan smoke (most likely because of the godless place it came from) had devilish magical properties- it was rumoured to induce trances and give spiritual enlightenment- so it was Pagan Holy and Christian Sinful.
So there could be taken a narrative from the Fool to the Tobacco Merchant and onwards to holier things as the sequence gathers religious strength.

I still find this an odd way to look at a gambling game (the Tarot de Marseille).
The Heri card you showed- that tube in his hand might be called a musket. It was a precursor to the cigar- but consisted of a 6-8 inch roll of paper that looked like exactly like the item in his hand; like a toy horn wide at one end and narrower at the other- From it you drank your smoke.
Jan Nicot introduced tobacco into France in 1560- but I am led to believe it was in Italy much earlier than that.
The merchants that sold Tobacco there also sold spices and herbs.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: I would like to know.........

#19
Lorredan wrote:OK Robert I have tried to look at this from another point of view-
Is there any connection between Tobacco and Salvation?

Well it was thought that tobacco smoke prevented or protected against the plague.
Some Taverns were called tabgies in England and tabacchis in Italy because it was thought you magically 'drank the smoke' and became intoxicated- and therefore in English it was known as Sotweed.
The Church led the opposition to tobacco as it was a distraction from Holy objectives and a source of earthly delight, that it challenged Church teachings of forgoing earthly pleasure for rewards in the next life. It became an instrument of Heresy and a threat to Church power; and like gambling a loss of revenue. In the 16th century it was a Mortal sin to use tobacco. It was linked to the Devil- there are stories that grew about the Devil defecating and out sprouted tobacco.
This Pagan smoke (most likely because of the godless place it came from) had devilish magical properties- it was rumoured to induce trances and give spiritual enlightenment- so it was Pagan Holy and Christian Sinful.
So there could be taken a narrative from the Fool to the Tobacco Merchant and onwards to holier things as the sequence gathers religious strength.

I still find this an odd way to look at a gambling game (the Tarot de Marseille).
The Heri card you showed- that tube in his hand might be called a musket. It was a precursor to the cigar- but consisted of a 6-8 inch roll of paper that looked like exactly like the item in his hand; like a toy horn wide at one end and narrower at the other- From it you drank your smoke.
Jan Nicot introduced tobacco into France in 1560- but I am led to believe it was in Italy much earlier than that.
The merchants that sold Tobacco there also sold spices and herbs.
~Lorredan
LOL.

Well, we could both self-nominate ourselves in the Crackpot Theories thread! There isn't much general support for Jesus on the Tarot de Marseille, so I guess I might just go ahead and start singing Ross' "When a Man loves a Theory" song myself. I guess both of us will have to keep looking to build up evidence. I find it funny because I think we both have similar backgrounds, and both went through dozens of ideas about the history of the tarot.. and at one point I thought we both sort of settled on them being 15th Century religious religious images created in a 15th Century religious environment? I must have misunderstood.

Back on topic about the tobacco... This is interesting, a mention of the "musket", very similar to the Heri indeed!:
1492-11: Jerez and Torres Discover Smoking; Jerez Becomes First European Smoker

Rodrigo de Jerez and Luis de Torres, in Cuba searching for the Khan of Cathay (China), are credited with first observing smoking. They reported that the natives wrapped dried tobacco leaves in palm or maize "in the manner of a musket formed of paper." After lighting one end, they commenced "drinking" the smoke through the other.

http://www.tobacco.org/History/Tobacco_History.html
Image
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: I would like to know.........

#20
Hehehe- indeedy I was of a settled view until I roamed Northern Italy and changed my mind last year. @-)
I too change like the wind- it blows one way, then I turn around for a blast from another direction.
Apart from the tobacco diversion I am slowly- oh so slowly trying to translate a poem by Mariotto Davanzatti on friendship......maybe friends who smoke together stay together :)) ( a wee pun for a Catholic lad)
In Italy I discovered a surprise. Italy is a Catholic Museum, not a Catholic country in many ways. It seems as if it was always them (the Church) and Us (the people), with the people's loyalty leaning toward their Signore in preference to the Church. Sort of like Catholic at the top and underneath 'lip service'. Classes could well be called Popes, Patricians and Plebeians. I guess here is what I think.....
I agree that moral and spiritual lessons were the ultimate concerns of the people, and it shows a lot of bias towards religious material- I think entertainment was education with a great deal of humour, in the 15th/16th Century. Much like anywhere really. The Italians in particular seem to combine pleasure with profit more than most.The printers made a fortune. The people liked Education it would seem as texts from Dante and Boccaccio and the other one... Petrarch were very popular amongst the men- so to me Tarot did not come from there as these were considered not suitable for Women and Children and those texts were not taught in vocational schools at the time. There were public lectures on Dante apparently but not for women- so did those women playing cards in the frescoes know about the ideas? So I think Tarot was far less Catholic, far less highbrow than it is currently been made out to be.
Nevertheless- I enjoy the stimulation of wondering and musing- crackpot or not.
I do not read Tarot on Forums (or rarely) it is the curious and curiouser history that has my attention. :(|)
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

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