I would like to know.........

#1
Can someone please tell me the earliest card image typical of Tarot de Marseille the Bateleur that is dated for sure?
An image of said verifiable card would be great.
I am looking for a card from 1523 onwards. If there is one earlier, then I will not continue with my idea.

Many thanks
Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: I would like to know.........

#2
Lorredan wrote:Can someone please tell me the earliest card image typical of Tarot de Marseille the Bateleur that is dated for sure?
An image of said verifiable card would be great.
I am looking for a card from 1523 onwards. If there is one earlier, then I will not continue with my idea.

Many thanks
Lorredan
Hi Lorredan,

I'm not being facetious here...

What do you mean by "earliest card image typical of the Tarot de Marseille"? Certainly we have the Visconti Sforza from the 1400s which shows a Magician behind the table, but I know you know that, so there must be some more particular thing that you mean?

The earliest existing Tarot de Marseille, as I'm sure you also know, is the Noblet from 1650. There's also the Cary Sheet, as you also know from the "monkey" discussions. So..

Can you be more specific about what you're looking for? Or maybe just spill the beans and express your idea?

It's nice to see you back.

robert
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: I would like to know.........

#3
Thanks Robert- I did not know this site was still operating as I am on a new computer at a New home- I had lost all my sites. Oh the relief to see you elsewhere put up your site.
I had stopped visiting in part because of banned member who had sent me an email and photos of his estimable self- so I went and hid. Very Weird.

I wanted to check that the Noblet was the earliest.

You see I have in front of me a miniature copy (it is tiny) from the Correr Museum in Venice of a Tobacco seller (no artist named)who is a dead ringer for the Tarot de Marseille Bateleur. It is dated circa 1530 and is something to do with the Inquisition torturing people who used Tobacco. On his table are 3 dice, 3 small parcels of Tobacco? a purse, a knife, a bowl. His table has the A frame legs and he is wearing a Hat in red- just like the Noblet. Between his legs is also a tobacco plant with 3 leaves.
I am going to see if I can get someone to enlarge it, scan it and send it to me- so I can link it to this site. I also have a later one by a Jan Grevembroch that is similar Not dated but possibly 1600? No plant though.
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: I would like to know.........

#5
Lorredan wrote:Thanks Robert- I did not know this site was still operating as I am on a new computer at a New home- I had lost all my sites. Oh the relief to see you elsewhere put up your site.
I had stopped visiting in part because of banned member who had sent me an email and photos of his estimable self- so I went and hid. Very Weird.

I wanted to check that the Noblet was the earliest.

You see I have in front of me a miniature copy (it is tiny) from the Correr Museum in Venice of a Tobacco seller (no artist named)who is a dead ringer for the Tarot de Marseille Bateleur. It is dated circa 1530 and is something to do with the Inquisition torturing people who used Tobacco. On his table are 3 dice, 3 small parcels of Tobacco? a purse, a knife, a bowl. His table has the A frame legs and he is wearing a Hat in red- just like the Noblet. Between his legs is also a tobacco plant with 3 leaves.
I am going to see if I can get someone to enlarge it, scan it and send it to me- so I can link it to this site. I also have a later one by a Jan Grevembroch that is similar Not dated but possibly 1600? No plant though.
~Lorredan
That sounds very interesting indeed. Maybe Marco could give us some insight into this? I find it particularly interesting because I had heard that the place to buy Tarot cards in Italy was at a tobacco shop. When a friend went a few years ago, he looked, but said that he didn't find any tobacco shops that sold tarot cards where he was (he did find an LS Ancient Italian elsewhere which he brought back for me). So maybe there is some historical connection between Cards (or tarot specifically) and Tobacco? I did a search for "tabacchi tarocchi" and for "tabaccaio" and with a brief look (and I'm sure we might have better words to use???), I did find this interesting image which is listed as "Il Tabacco, 1650, Biblioteca Nazionale di Torino".

Image

Re: I would like to know.........

#7
I cannot get the earlier miniature to scan with my obsolete scanner. Will enlist help from someone.
This is the miniature by Jan Grevembroch circa perhaps 1600.
The earlier one is minus roof, vase, +plus dice or packets of tobacco and has tobacco plant between legs and is less detailed or more like a Tarot de Marseille card.
Very interesting eh?
~Lorredan
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: I would like to know.........

#8
Until I get my ....together, maybe the Noblet Penis finger is a roll of Tobacco =))
All on his table could well be the tobacconist's stuff- three snuff bowls the tied round parcels of snuff, the square parcels of the weed, the knife, the leaf roller, the tobacco plant, the bag of tobacco (not a monkey within =(( )

~Lorredan

ps Yes I bought most of the decks in Italy at Tobacconists. That is also where the villagers in the North get their modern Tarrocchi decks from.
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts
Attachments
BateleurNoblet.jpg
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Re: I would like to know.........

#9
Darn, I can scan some stuff but not tiny images- here is a part of an image on a large postcard. It is from a work by Pietro Liberi (the Father not the son born in 1650) called Man dragged down by Vices circa 1600-1650.
~Lorredan

No I can't...scratch that. I will try again
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

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