Bolognese sequence

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Re: Bolognese sequence

Postby mikeh on 21 Feb 2014, 05:38

Perhaps you're referring to the fact that the numbers that the BM put next to the cards in their little book are Tarot de Marseille rather than Bolognese. Well, I noticed that right away, as soon as saw them. I assumed it was a reflection on somebody in the 18th or 19th century, not the BM now. The BM is not going to erase those numbers just because they are wrong. The book itself is a historical document of whatever time. And museums are more concerned to get the dating of their objects right than little things like card order. But when I look at their reference, Wilshire in 1876, it seems more likely that he simply passed on an earlier error, not knowing himself when exactly the Moors appeared or even how many there were, and nobody's thought to change it since. If that is what you are saying, OK. It seems odd to me that they'd notice the Moors and not check on them further, whenever they were setting up the website. But probably they just gave the job to a typist. I'm too used to being my own.

I have not been able to get the BNF link you gave to take me to the BNF Alla Torre cards. A few clues there might be of value, since I really would like to know how to use that site.
mikeh
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Location: Oregon USA
Favorite Deck: Conver/Noblet & Sola-Busca pips

Re: Bolognese sequence

Postby Ross G. R. Caldwell on 21 Feb 2014, 10:48

mikeh wrote:But when I look at their reference, Wilshire in 1876, it seems more likely that he simply passed on an earlier error, not knowing himself when exactly the Moors appeared or even how many there were, and nobody's thought to change it since. If that is what you are saying, OK.


Bingo! Right; and you inferred the correct reason, too.

Note that neither of Willshire's main sources for the Bolognese cards, Cicognara and Merlin, know that it was Cardinal Ruffo in 1725 who demanded the change from papi to mori.

He quotes Merlin on page 81, under I.6, speculating that since the Bolognese recognized Papal sovereignty in 1513, it was after this date that the papi (which he thinks were the Pope, Popess, Emperor and Empress) were changed to mori.

Under I.11 and I.12 (pp. 86-88), Montieri's geographical pack, he even quotes Cicognara on the events of 1725, but this latter doesn't seem to know what really happened, and doesn't mention the Legate's (Ruffo) objections.

So Willshire was unable to make the connection between 1725 and the change. It was not until either 1895, in the much larger Lady Schreiber Playing Cards of Various Ages and Countries, volume III, p. 14, which I have not been able to see (hence my uncertainty as to what the catalogue says), or finally 1909, in Gian Battista Comelli's 1909 paper "Il 'governo misto' in Bologna dal 1507 al 1797 e le carte da giuoco del Can. Montieri", in Atti e Memorie della Reale Deputazione di Storia Patria per la Romagna, ser. 3, vol. XXVII, pp.1-39, that the explicit time and reason for the change was finally published.

It seems odd to me that they'd notice the Moors and not check on them further, whenever they were setting up the website. But probably they just gave the job to a typist. I'm too used to being my own.


Yes, you could tell from the bibliography "Willshire I.8" that it was out-of-date information. It wasn't a playing card specialist that put up the information, that is clear.

I have not been able to get the BNF link you gave to take me to the BNF Alla Torre cards. A few clues there might be of value, since I really would like to know how to use that site.


Do you get the page with the search fields to fill in?
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Ross G. R. Caldwell
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Location: Béziers
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Re: Bolognese sequence

Postby Ross G. R. Caldwell on 21 Feb 2014, 14:45

Here is the link to the older thread, from 2010, with these cards.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=549&hilit=bnf

If you put "bolonais" in the search field of the link DennisClay gives, it takes you to the images.

http://images.bnf.fr/jsp/index.jsp
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Ross G. R. Caldwell
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Location: Béziers
Favorite Deck: Bibl. nat. Estampes, Kh. 34 rés t.I
Mood: Pedantic
Aliases: belmurru

Re: Bolognese sequence

Postby mikeh on 21 Feb 2014, 21:04

Yes, that link does the trick. I still can't get the other one to get me there with those search terms (bolonais or tarot bolonais), but it doesn't matter now. Also, I hadn't thought to tell Google to find "tarot bolonais" for me.

Thanks also for the background on why Wilshire wasn't aware of the particular circumstance that occasioned the introduction of Moors into the deck.
mikeh
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Location: Oregon USA
Favorite Deck: Conver/Noblet & Sola-Busca pips

Re: Bolognese sequence

Postby mikeh on 25 Feb 2014, 03:14

Wilshire's book is online, at https://archive.org/stream/cu3192403252 ... 6_djvu.txt

About this deck, he says (translated into OCRese):
I. 8.

SEVENTEENTH CENTURY?

SERIES of diminutive cards, thirty-eight in number. It is composed
of an aiiiUi suit (twenty-two), and the sixteen figure cards belonging
to the numeral suits, apparently of a tarocchino sequence.

The latter may be infeiTcd from the circumstance that two Moors,
or satraps, displace Le Pape and La Papesse in the atutti suit.

The designs and execution are of common character; the pieces are un-
coloured.

[ 1 _'^ X i in.] [Backs plain.]

However Wilshire is not wholly to blame for the misdating. The BM left off his question mark!
mikeh
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Location: Oregon USA
Favorite Deck: Conver/Noblet & Sola-Busca pips

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