Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#41
Thanks for the reference, Phaeded. I knew from Poncet's essay that Dempsey had published on this subject, but Poncet's reference was to a book published in France. I am very happy to know about Dempsey's recent book, which is more accessible, and in fact in a couple of local libraries where I have borrowing privileges.

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#42
Reading Dempsey's book, I was disappointed that he did not comment on the niello print with the bears. His reconstructions of the descriptions of the Orsini paintings simply confirm what Poncet says about them. It should be noted that the bears are mentioned only for the Persian sibyl, as substituting for the serpent that Orsini's humanist recommended. I found the book quite interesting, both for its current information and its general thesis about defining the Renaissance, supporting Warburg against Panofsky and Gombrich. One part you might find interesting, Phaeded and others, is his remarks, p. 173, about Lo Scheggia's cassone paintings of the seven enthroned virtues (and his son Anton-francesco's of the seven liberal arts) now in the Museu de art de Catalunya in Barcelona. Dempsey says:
They were painted late in Scheggia's career, and, like Baldini's engravings of the prophets and sibyls, ultimately reflect the inventions by Piero Pollaiuolo and Botticelli for the cardinal and theological virtues in the Tribunal of the Mercanzia. (91) The same is true of the domestic paintings by Biagio d'Antonio, who in partnership with Jacopo Sellaio shared a shop with Lo Scheggia and his son in the early 1470s. (92) It is also true of the Botticellesque panel int he Corsini Palace in Florence, which shows five allegorical figures seated, as are many of Baldini's sibyls, on thrones of cloud, an old-fashined device used by the engraver that was also adopted by a far greater artist, Ghirlandaio, for his frescoes of four sibyls in the vault of the Sassetti Chapel, painted between 1479 and 1485. (93)
91. Bellosi and Haines, Lo Scheggia, p. 75. See also L. Bellosi and M. Folchi, Collecion Cambo (Barcelona 1990), pp. 159-170.
92. Bellosi and Haines, Lo Scheggia, p. 69, and R. Bartoli, Bacio d'Antonio (Milan, 1999), pp. 23, 150-154, 185-186, and 235.
93. For the Corsini Gallery Allegory, see M. Levey and G. Mandel, The Complete Paintings of Botticelli (New York, 1967), no. 133, p. 106. For the Sassetti Chapel, J. K. Cadogan, Domenico Ghirlandaio, Artist and Artisan (New Haven, CT, 2000), no. 16, pp. 230-36. There are four sibyls shown by Ghirlandaio, of whom three are identifiable by inscriptions on their scrolls as the sibyl Agrippa and the Erythraean and Cumaean sibyls. The fourth is unknown, though tentatively identified as the Cimmerian sibyl (following a suggestion tentatively put forward by Borsook and Offerhsaus). In addition, Ghirlandaio painted Augustus and the Tiburtine sibyl above the entrance arch of the Sassetti Chapel.

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#43
Phaeded wrote: Huck
As for the globe - not sure how Ptolemy can figure too much into those gray representations where only towns/castles are shown (there is no "concentricness"). I believe the pairings with virtues merely means thay have universal applicability (e.g., Justice should mean the same thing the whole world over; same with Time of course...and Prudence or any other virtue; but each context begs the question as to why a given virtue is being elevated to a privledged/universal height over the others, if other virtues are present in the sequence).

Phaeded
Well,
we observe the Trionfi card sequences, and they produce the phenomenon, that the card identified as "world" (by persons of our 20th and 21st century) differs in 15th century Trionfi versions which are still known to us ... Prudentia, Fame, World, perhaps also aspects of Time seem to be indicated, contradicting the view, that there was one and the same order of trumps given as the "basic model" (by some called "Ur-Tarot" ... but this is, my humble opinion, not a good and a misleading expression, as the word Tarot didn't exist in this time).
The time, in which these pictures were made showed a special interest in cosmological questions, cartography collided with the older knowledge, that earth is not flat, but a globe. As this usually had not much practical value in the everyday-life in the European pre-15th-century life, this view had not much interest. But sea travels outside the European sphere came near to the point, when this aspect gained importance. Columbus detected America a few decades later, based on the globe idea. In the earlier observed time we have an increased interest in the Ptelomy (all this debate about the translation of Ptelomy's Almagest by George of Trebizond, made for Pope Nicholas, which was attacked for its many errors). This was rather precisely just the time, when some of the relevant world pictures were made.

Virtues (or better "highest cards")
We've an increased virtue of Justice in Ferrarese decks, though it is not the highest trump. I think, that this happened according a preference of duke Borso, who identified himself with Justice. Others might have had other preferences. In those Tarot sequences, which are close to each other, we've mostly differences in the 2 top positions (20 + 21). And it seems, that different cities (or states) had different solutions.

Florence (Minchiate) : Angel=Fama above World
Bologna: Angel=Judgment above World
Ferrara: World at top, second Justice, 3rd Angel=Judgment
Milan: World at top, Angel=Judgment
Sicily: Jupiter with Ganymed or eagle at top, second Atlas with World
Mitelli: Angel at top, Atlas as World
Boiardo: Fortezza-Lucrezia (possibly Fame related) at top, second Tower, third something with Time
Sola Busca: ...

Image

on top, round as a globe, but actually it shows a heaven at night with a flying dragon in the middle, so it's actually an astronomical symbol.
... :-) ... round as a globe, but flying like an Angel or Fama. Compare Jupiter with an eagle in the Sicily Tarocchi, which he needed to associate Angel or Fame ... in the Sola-Busca the eagle or Angel had mutated to a flying dragon

Well, and second the Tower (similar to Boiardo, who had a ruin there)

Image


In my opinion, the Towers at second place (Boiardo, Sola Busca) have descended from the earlier Chess Trionfi decks. In Chess the Tower = Rook was the most capable figure on the board, so it was natual to give him the highest position in the Chess Trionfi deck, which usually had only 16 cards. The second rook was presented by Judgment or Fame.

Well, and the Tar-eau-t de Cologne tells, what this is all about:

... :-) Tarot de Cologne (c. 1846; Agrippina at top, Kölner Bauer as second, a sort of prince carnival as Magician; according the Dreigestirn-Tradition Prinz, Bauer and Jungfrau during carnival)

Image


Image


Image


Well, you see, that was local patriotism in the Köln Tarot and it is fun. And likely it's similar with the Italian decks.

In later time there was a lot with tax stamps to secure, that the state got income from the playing card use. Unluckily we can't describe in all details, how they handled this during 15th century. But the local variants likely served to secure, that in specific regions the people played with cards made in the own region (and for which the tax was paid, which went then into the "right pockets").
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Who's in the Chariot?

#44
"Now, it's interesting to note that the Visconti-Sforza horses have wings, which pushes this card into the realm of fantasy, mythology, and ideology. "
-Robert

Could it also make this Tarot image of the Chariot a representation of a constellation?

Auriga the Charioteer (or Wagoner) is a constellation in the northern sky that resembles the Chariot card of the early Tarot decks.

Similar images in the image of Auriga and the early Chariot card include: A chariot, A chariot driver, Two horses (Auriga has two goats instead).

Note that Auriga is a portrayal of the Greek god Hephaestus, who made armor, arrows, and chariots.

Only some celestial portrayals of Auriga on planispheres have an actual picture of a chariot, although the Charioteer usually holds reins, which may have been converted to whips or possible bridals in some Tarot card versions. Some versions have a chariot drawn by a goat. Auriga is always portrayed as a man.

Note that Auriga was a forger of swords and that a sword sometimes appears in the Chariot card. As a goat herder, he was probably also seen with a staff.

The ring of balls around the waist of the Chariot driver in some versions of the Chariot card could well represent the ring of five bright stars that make up the chariot of the Auriga constellation. Two additional stars (2 goat stars) could be added to make the seven balls on the Rothchild Chariot card and other decks.

"The Chariot from the museum of Ursino Castle, in Catania (Sicily) is related to the "Visconti" tarots, but this one is from the "Tarot of Alessandro Sforza", who was Francesco Sforza's brother." - Robert

Notice the "dove-like" image to the left of the Charioteer in the Cary-Yale card. Look closer at the object(s) on the Charioteer's right shoulder (left side from our view). These could possible be a representation of the goat(s) that usually appear on the shoulder of Auriga. It appears to be a poor reconstruction of a previous image that was unintelligible to the Tarot artist. But how could a goat become a bird? How could a goat become a winged horse? The wings on the horses are related to the dove on the Cary-Yale Chariot card.

Also notice the seven balls around the waist, representing the seven bright stars of Auriga. Also notice that the round (pentagon shape) form of Auriga naturally associates it with a wheel(s).

" When I get around to painting your ceiling in the library, I'm thinking of including a scene in one corner from the popular story of Phaeton, where he drops the reins on his dad's chariot and ends up scorching the world?"
- OnePotato

Note that Auriga was also connected with Phaethon, the child rider of the sun chariot, so there could also be a connection between the orb, which may represent the sun. Note that the Rothschild collection has circular objects on the upper corners that are emanating rays such as the sun is portrayed. Note the wings on the helmet of the chariot driver, which is a reminder that Auriga is a celestial charioteer. The feminine appearance in some of the Chariot cards could be because the artist was trying to portray a young man (Phaethon), not a young woman.

" Other flying experts include Daedelus and his less-talented son Icarus. " - Debra
The Chariot card and the Sun card have close connections in my opinion.

The Geofrey Catelin tarot from 1557 showing the Chariot card more clearly shows the Auriga constellation because the charioteer is portrayed as an older man (philosopher), which may have some connection with someone in the Francesco Sforza family.

"(Yeah.. I know this is getting old... but...) Who is in the Chariot?" - Robert

Auriga is in the Chariot.

- Cartomancer (Lance Carter)

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#45
Petrarca has written the poem "Trionfi" during 14th century. The objects of the poem are six allegories, rowed in Love - Chastity - Death - Fame - Time - Eternity.
The poem became popular around 1440. Our first knowledge about a complete illustrated Trionfi poem version is a letter exchange between Piero de Medici and the artist, dated to January 1441. In the 1440s we have then an artistic development, mainly known from Florence, in which all six motifs are shown riding on a chariot, often used on wedding chests.
In a Trionfi poem fragment located now in Bavaria (1414) Fame is shown on a chariot.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WgfxEAku5wI/U ... he1414.JPG
(1414 is naturally early earlier than 1441, but it were only two pictures in this text fragment and only one showed a chariot)

***************

The first known use of the word "Trionfi" in a context with playing cards appeared in September 1440, and the note by Giusto Giusti related to a "Trionfi" deck made in Florence, which Giusti used as a present to Pandolfo Sigismondo Malatesta.

6 of the later Tarot card row are recognizable as being based on the Petrarca motifs. In the Marseille order row these are ...

---
6 Love
7 Chastity, when the rider is female
---
13 Death
14 Fame (in some versions it has the inscription Fama Sol, in a list of c. 1540 it's addressed as Fama).
---
(9) Time
21 Eternity

.... so you've not only one "Auriga", but six of them. It's hardly an accident, that the begin of the Petrarca poem fashion (January 1441 according to that, what is observable) and the use of the term Trionfi for specific playing cards (September 1440, as far we know it) fall together at the same time and the same location (Florence).

It seems plausible, that the great event of the council in Florence, starting in January/February 1439 with 3 triumphal festivities (also called "Trionfi", one for Pope Eugen, one for the Greek patriarch and one for the Greek Emperor) played a role in the Trionfi fashion.

*********************
Note that Auriga is a portrayal of the Greek god Hephaestus, who made armor, arrows, and chariots.
Where do you got this from? The usual myth refers to Erichthonius, king of Athen and son of Hephaistos, a man with a strange birth and dragon tails instead of feet.
According to the Parian Chronicle, he taught his people to yoke horses and use them to pull chariots, to smelt silver, and to till the earth with a plough. It was said that Erichthonius was lame of his feet and that he consequently invented the quadriga, or four-horse chariot to get around easier. He is said to have competed often as a chariot driver in games. Zeus was said to have been so impressed with his skill that he raised him to the heavens to become the constellation of the Charioteer (Auriga) after his death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erichthonius_of_Athens

Well, also Hephaistos was considered lame, cause he was son of Hera, which she got without a father. Zeus didn't like that and threw Hephaistos out of heaven (so he became lame). Here we have the parallel to the Phaethon-myth and also Ikaros, son of the human smith Daidalos (from Athen), and also to Hippolytos, a son of the king of Athen Theseus.
Base of the "fall from heaven" is the association of Hephaistos with Vulcanism (earthly fire in contrast to 'Helios, the fire of the heaven).
Likely early Athen profiled itself with good metal-working. So we've here propaganda for an early industry.

********************

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viewtopic.php?f=23&t=856
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#46
Cartomancer wrote: Auriga is in the Chariot.

- Cartomancer (Lance Carter)
Auriga IS the Charioteer, auriga in Latin means "charioteer", so this statement is just redundant.

But the constellation of the same name explains nothing about the imagery on the card or its place in the sequence.
Image

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#47
Huck wrote:Petrarca has written the poem "Trionfi" during 14th century. The objects of the poem are six allegories, rowed in Love - Chastity - Death - Fame - Time - Eternity....

.... so you've not only one "Auriga", but six of them. It's hardly an accident, that the begin of the Petrarca poem fashion (January 1441 according to that, what is observable) and the use of the term Trionfi for specific playing cards (September 1440, as far we know it) fall together at the same time and the same location (Florence).
My thesis is that the Major Arcana are pictures of constellations.
Has any card game been found named: "Game of Constellations"?
I heard that there was a "Game of Planets".

*********************
Note that Auriga is a portrayal of the Greek god Hephaestus, who made armor, arrows, and chariots.
Where do you got this from? The usual myth refers to Erichthonius, king of Athen and son of Hephaistos, a man with a strange birth and dragon tails instead of feet.
According to the Parian Chronicle, he taught his people to yoke horses and use them to pull chariots, to smelt silver, and to till the earth with a plough. It was said that Erichthonius was lame of his feet and that he consequently invented the quadriga, or four-horse chariot to get around easier. He is said to have competed often as a chariot driver in games. Zeus was said to have been so impressed with his skill that he raised him to the heavens to become the constellation of the Charioteer (Auriga) after his death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erichthonius_of_Athens
Well, also Hephaistos was considered lame, cause he was son of Hera, which she got without a father. Zeus didn't like that and threw Hephaistos out of heaven (so he became lame). Here we have the parallel to the Phaethon-myth and also Ikaros, son of the human smith Daidalos (from Athen), and also to Hippolytos, a son of the king of Athen Theseus.
Base of the "fall from heaven" is the association of Hephaistos with Vulcanism (earthly fire in contrast to 'Helios, the fire of the heaven).
Likely early Athen profiled itself with good metal-working. So we've here propaganda for an early industry.
I should have checked more sources for Hephaestus, but I found my reference to Hephaestus and Auriga on p. 126 of "Outer Space" by Gertrude and James Jobes.
******************
Auriga IS the Charioteer, auriga in Latin means "charioteer", so this statement is just redundant.

But the constellation of the same name explains nothing about the imagery on the card or its place in the sequence.
I was under the impression that my previous post explained much of the imagery shared between the Chariot card and the constellation Auriga. Yes, my statement about Auriga being in the Chariot was redundant.

My thesis is that the MA pictures also portray constellations, no matter what else people read into the cards. However, much of my supporting documentation regarding the order of the MA regards the alphabet's relationship to the Tarot. The Tarot MA sequence is alphabetical. Is there a thread here that focuses on the early alphabet and its influence on the Tarot?
-C

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#48
Cartomancer wrote:
My thesis is that the Major Arcana are pictures of constellations.
Has any card game been found named: "Game of Constellations"?
Perhaps not with this name, but with constellations of stars. During 17th century, in Germany and England (perhaps also elsewhere) as part of a series of "teaching playing cards", which were rather popular during 17th century, mainly after Louis XIV got as a boy 4 teaching games. See (for instance) ...
http://www.abebooks.com/astronomische-S ... 9179632/bd
I heard that there was a "Game of Planets".
Possibly noted in the Rosselli inventory 1528? There were some games noted, which now exist only as name.
The Rosselli Inventory catalogs the workshop of Francesco
Rosselli, listing plates for printing a number of otherwise
unknown games: the giuocho del trionfo del petrarcha in 3
pezi; the giuco dapostoli chol nostro singnore, in sette pezi,
di lengno; the giuocho di sete virtu, in 3 pezi, di lengno;
and the gioucho di pianeti cho loro fregi, in 4 pezi. (The
game of the triumph of Petrarch; the game of Apostles with our
Lord; the game of seven virtues; and the game of planets with
their borders). (D 82-83; M 53.)
http://www.luckymojo.com/tarot/tarothistref.txt
from Michal Hurst's "Fragments"
I should have checked more sources for Hephaestus, but I found my reference to Hephaestus and Auriga on p. 126 of "Outer Space" by Gertrude and James Jobes.
I found Erichthonius as major story instead mentioned at least at three sources easily. Generally the star pictures have usually more than one connected myth.
The Tarot MA sequence is alphabetical. Is there a thread here that focuses on the early alphabet and its influence on the Tarot?
Aeclectic offers a subforum ...
"Kabbalah & Alphabets
Jewish mysticism and its esoteric use, alphabets, and their application to Tarot."

... :-)... ? What's "Tarot MA"? What Mama told me about Tarot? Or Tarot des Marseilles? Or middle-age Tarot?

"The Tarot MA sequence is alphabetical."
Maybe some persons have the hypothesis, that there was one picture sequence, that was a playing card deck and connected to the alphabet ... this doesn't mean that any "Tarot IS or WAS alphabetical".

Actually letters on a playing card deck could be a good tool to teach young children the alphabet, and I feel sure, that such teaching decks existed once, also in 15th century. When my son had been 3 years old, he got letters made from some plastic, and it worked well, and he was enthusiastic to detect the same signs on the car shields everywhere on the street and could name them. Later he learned reading nearly by himself within 2-3 weeks, after identifying the word "Erbsensuppe" at the grocer store.
It's rather obvious, that such games must have been in 15th century. Unluckily none of them survived, and my logical idea is only a "hypothesis".

That's part of the ABC etc. ... in History, that you're careful with IS and WAS in matters, which are not proven ... If you connect IS and WAS with a "I think, that xy IS or WAS ...", then you're beside the trap. Nobody minds, that you've an opinion.

**************************

Here something for you ...

igi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg832/0178?sid=2d76769e77d3960b867cc4f14091f304

... the book is after 1491, but it contains 36 star pictures made according Michael Scotus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Scot
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#49
Huck wrote:
Cartomancer wrote:
I heard that there was a "Game of Planets".
Possibly noted in the Rosselli inventory 1528? There were some games noted, which now exist only as name.
The Rosselli Inventory catalogs the workshop of Francesco
Rosselli, listing plates for printing a number of otherwise
unknown games: the giuocho del trionfo del petrarcha in 3
pezi; the giuco dapostoli chol nostro singnore, in sette pezi,
di lengno; the giuocho di sete virtu, in 3 pezi, di lengno;
and the gioucho di pianeti cho loro fregi, in 4 pezi. (The
game of the triumph of Petrarch; the game of Apostles with our
Lord; the game of seven virtues; and the game of planets with
their borders). (D 82-83; M 53.)
http://www.luckymojo.com/tarot/tarothistref.txt
from Michal Hurst's "Fragments"
This is longstanding mistake, unfortunately beginning with Hind himself and persisting even in serious and usually careful writers like Moakley and Dummett where Tarot is concerned.

The "giuochi" listed in the inventory are plates for single page prints of the subjects named. In the case of Petrarch's Trionfi and the (Children of the ) Planets, Hind himself identifies them with known engravings, which he reproduces.

See this post -
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=906&start=40#p13237

I'll start a "Rosselli Inventory" thread to put the details as a corrective for future reference on this persistent legend (an "erudite legend" in playing card history, like Covarrubias' "N.P." ("nah y peh"="naïpe") = Nicolas Pepin as the inventor of cards, Ménestrier's Jacquemin Gringonneur as inventor of cards, etc.).
Image

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#50
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote: See this post -
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=906&start=40#p13237

I'll start a "Rosselli Inventory" thread to put the details as a corrective for future reference on this persistent legend (an "erudite legend" in playing card history, like Covarrubias' "N.P." ("nah y peh"="naïpe") = Nicolas Pepin as the inventor of cards, Ménestrier's Jacquemin Gringonneur as inventor of cards, etc.).
Interesting, I didn't read this argument earlier. Yes, it would be good to have such a thread.

However, in the case of Mitelli we have, that he made lots of games, which were not card games, but he made also card games. Likely one cannot exclude, that it was similar with Rosselli.

Are there pictures of the two games, which were identified?
Huck
http://trionfi.com

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