Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#21
http://www.users.bigpond.com/sarcasmo/s ... /venus.gif
This Venus I think- with Christian sensibility of a little metal and Material :D
She/He is oddly distorted as well leaning forward somewhat. Those look like Kina on her front. I have no idea what you call them elsewhere- Sea Urchins? Sand Dollars?- but you are right, the figure is feminine in a bizarre way.

Thanks OnePotato - I have looked up Phaethon, and have stored some more stuff in my weary brain.
I keep making this Freudian slip Cistine/Sistine Chapel. I even wrote it in my diary :oops:
I am going to visit the Chapel named after a drain :roll: at the end of this month and have been saying SSSSS tine for days. It's like the Holy Sea Lol. Something mushy is happening to my brain of late.
I have not been able to source a Vieville- so I am going to raid the Baccy shops in Italy.
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#22
I'm betting the VB Bacchus charioteer is a man. None of the girls in the deck show bare arms except for the World dancer, and women's arms in these old decks are generally covered by long sleeves. Furthermore, too much leg showing--usually it's only that peep of Strength's ankle we see (excepting the Dancing Girl, of course). In the VB Bacchus, the Moon and the Chariot have similar wardrobes and I think the Moon may be male for that reason--it's wearing leggings, for cryin' out loud.

So, Charioteering that involves ferrying the sun across the sky: the Sun chariot is driven by Helios/Apollo, or son Phaeton. Other flying experts include Daedelus and his less-talented son Icarus.

If this is a flying chariot--who is the Sun Goddess?

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#25
Hola ! (Hello in Spanish) Lorredan...
Well I allways strongly pointed to "see " the images cards.
So could you tell to me on which deck the Man ride the chariot ?
I think that at anyone,Madam...
So we have VII card coming from VI and toward to VIII-
On Aeclectic I said that after reached VII stage the man gave the possibility to reach the another stage,so VIII card,so to meet VIIII card.

Eugim
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#27
Hello friends!.

Well, I think in CY and PMB is the Fame. The reasoning is this.

A. For concept:

1. St. Agustin, Boecio, Boccaccio, Petrarca, S. Brandt, Chaucer (Monks tale) Juan de Mena... Her arguments about Fortuna is the same:

spiritual possessions vs material possessions

material possessions = wealth, fame, power, love...

Before the hell, the ruin of the soul (traditore, morte, sagitta, diavolo) we have:

Virtues > We can forget. It fit here to put the death at position 13

Human court and power > [1] El bagatella, [2] Imperatrix, [3] Imperator, [4] La papessa, [5] El papa
love > [7] L'amore

Money, and generic material possessions > [10] La rotta

Fame > [8] Lo caro triumphale

Then arrived the Time [11] El gobbo, and begin the Hell's trip..

2. Fame is necesary in fight triumphs. For example

a) In Filocolo (thanks Huck), we have

Virtues - Glory vs Fortuna - Fame

b) Petrarca, Trionfi

Fame vs (real) Glory, the Eternity.

B. For iconography:

I Amorosa visione by Boccaccio we have (at least) five triumphs. One of this is the fame. She is in a chariot, with two horses, dressed as an empress, have a sword and "pomo d'oro" (the ball of world).

Oltre passai, sanza più far dimora,
con gli occhi a riguardar, lasciando stare
quel ch'io disio di rivedere ancora,
là dove a colei piacque che voltare
io mi dovessi; e vidi in quella parte
cosa ch'ancor mirabile mi pare.
Odi, ché mai Natura con sua arte
forma non diede a sì bella figura:
non Citarea, allor ch'ell'amò Marte.
né quando Adon le piacque, con sua cura
si fé sì bella, quanto infra gran gente
donna pareva lì leggiadra e pura.
Tutti li soprastava veramente,
di ricche pietre coronata e d'oro,
nell'aspetto magnanima e possente.
Ardita sopra un carro tra costoro
grande e triunfal lieta sedea,
ornato tutto di frondi d'alloro.
Mirando questa gente in man tenea
una spada tagliente,
con la quale
che 'l mondo minacciasse mi parea.
Il suo vestire a guisa imperiale
era, e teneva nella man sinestra
un pomo d'oro, e 'n trono alla reale,
vidi, sedeva; e dalla sua man destra
due cavalli eran che col petto forte
traeano il carro fra la gente alpestra.
Ed intra l'altre cose che iscorte
quivi furon da me intorno a questa
sovrana donna, nimica di morte
nel magnanimo aspetto, fu ch'a sesta
un cerchio si movea grande e ritondo,
da' piè passando a lei sopra la testa.

http://digilander.libero.it/il_boccacci ... sione.html
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#28
i would supposes that the female charioteer from the visconti-sforza deck is a prominent lady of the house, as the family seems to have had some of the cards depict family members, ala the lovers.

in the Tarot de Marseille decks, we usually see initials on the chariot's shield. i believe that in dodal's deck it's left blank, but in the noblet deck we can see the "I N" for jean noblet. does anyone know what the "V T" in the conver deck stands for?

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#29
Aloha Foolish,

I think several people have investigated this issue, none that I know has yet found any evidence - although I seem to remember someone pointed once a possible engraver's name, but again it was more or less a guess.
Those are supposed to be the engraver intials, so are the "G.S" on Chosson's Tarot ; one point to remember is that both Chosson and Conver (and any other) may be cardmakers who inherited or bought used decks, from previous cardmakers, and they are not for certain contemporaries to the engravers who made their molds. Hence Nicolas Conver may well never have met Mister (and probably not Miss nor Misses ) V.T.

Bertrand

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#30
i would supposes that the female charioteer from the visconti-sforza deck is a prominent lady of the house, as the family seems to have had some of the cards depict family members, ala the lovers.
Hi friend. I think she is Bianca Maria Visconti, but the concept of allegory is the triumph of fame.
When a man has a theory // Can’t keep his mind on nothing else (By Ross)

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