Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#11
Thinking of the Issy Chariot Card and Maids of Honour :?
Could it not hark back to Maia the to- be wife of Mars and the to-be Mother of Mercury- Maia Majestas, the Queen of May in her Chariot? Her four attendents might be- Fauna of the animals, Damia lady of wild places, Ops giver of abundance, Fatua speaker of prophecies. (looking at the hand gestures and relating it to what was later in English, Ladies of the Bedchamber, Mistresses of the Wardrobe) The seventh day of the May moon is the birthday of her brother Apollo. Would make a great Tableau for a Marriage Chariot.
~Lorredan~
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#12
le pendu wrote:Distorted Detail:
Image

I'm not sure what I am seeing on the Cary-Yale card, and would really love to hear your thoughts on what is held in her other hand. Is that a dove in the center? Is this a "Visconti device"?
What she holds is a jousting shield, reminiscent also of the Empress.

As the the bird-like emblem, I wonder if it is intended indeed something similar to the Empress's.
Image
&
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association.tarotstudies.org

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#13
jmd wrote: What she holds is a jousting shield, reminiscent also of the Empress.

As the the bird-like emblem, I wonder if it is intended indeed something similar to the Empress's.
I don't see a shield...
If it were a shield, why would she hold it from the bottom like that?
Why would it have a dove on it?
I don't see any other examples that seem to be associated with an eagle, or the Empress.

What I do see is that...
It's round, just like the orbs that so many other chariot figures hold.
It looks like it has radiating rays on it that radiate, no?
But it has a bird on it, instead of a cross.
Do we know of some sort of radiating golden ball that flies across the sky?
(Don't forget the winged horses, or the flying geese that pull the chariot on some other cards.)

When I get around to painting your ceiling in the library, I'm thinking of including a scene in one corner from the popular story of Phaeton, where he drops the reins on his dad's chariot and ends up scorching the world? Or else, if you prefer, I could just paint it white....
I am not a cannibal.

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#14
OnePotato wrote:
jmd wrote: What she holds is a jousting shield, reminiscent also of the Empress.

As the the bird-like emblem, I wonder if it is intended indeed something similar to the Empress's.
I don't see a shield...
If it were a shield, why would she hold it from the bottom like that?
Why would it have a dove on it?
I don't see any other examples that seem to be associated with an eagle, or the Empress.
Hi OnePotato,

I wasn't sure what I thought she was holding when I wrote the opening description. Actually, what did cross my mind was a "communion wafer", probably because I was connecting what might be a Dove with the Holy Ghost, and generally, the Church.

jmd makes a good point about the shield though. When I look at it now, I can see the same type of outline that we find on the Empress. This is what I see as a possible outline:

Image

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This came up in a (long!) thread on the Empress on AT:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=86725

jmd pointed out the similarity of the shield on the Empress to a "bouche":
Image


On this site, they define it as "The small corner cut into the top of the shield to accommodate the lance, not popular until the 15th century."

Here, also from the Cary-Yale Visconti, the Empress holds a similar shield:

Image

OnePotato wrote: What I do see is that...
It's round, just like the orbs that so many other chariot figures hold.
It looks like it has radiating rays on it that radiate, no?
But it has a bird on it, instead of a cross.
Do we know of some sort of radiating golden ball that flies across the sky?
(Don't forget the winged horses, or the flying geese that pull the chariot on some other cards.)

When I get around to painting your ceiling in the library, I'm thinking of including a scene in one corner from the popular story of Phaeton, where he drops the reins on his dad's chariot and ends up scorching the world? Or else, if you prefer, I could just paint it white....
I love that imagery. It reminds me of the Sun from the so-called "Mantagna Tarot".
Image
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#15
le pendu wrote:.....I love that imagery. It reminds me of the Sun from the so-called "Mantagna Tarot".
Image
Yes, that is what I had in mind.
Here, we have a classical representation of the sun traveling across the sky.
And there is the path. Two simple arcing lines....
Does it look like the Milky Way?

Anyway, don't forget, with all the talk...
Christian symbolism has a context, too.
One man's conclusions are another man's beginning.

I am thinking today that perhaps a white ceiling will make the library look brighter. And the fumes will be lesser...
:|
I am not a cannibal.

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#16
OnePotato, could you hazard a guess who has fallen from the Chariot in that card? I see a tiny scorpion up there too! I have worked out most of the occupants of Chariots- but never who fell out. :( And that looks like an ark on the back or am I missing in some myth? Maybe thats a Moon child?
I never forget that Christianity was closely connected to astrology/astronomy in it's walk. After all, God lives up there :?
I think the ceiling in the Library should be like the Cistine chapel- you have the talent- have you the time?
~Lorredan~
The Universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for our wits to grow sharper.
Eden Phillpotts

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#17
Here's the Chariot from Giuseppe Maria Mitelli's Tarocchino from around 1660 (modern coloration).

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Our Charioteer has certainly come a long way in 200 hundred years! Va va voom!

I suppose this is Venus?

I don't know anything about this next image, I received it by accident while trying to order something else. It published by Il Meneghello and is a set of 22 trumps called simply "22 Arcani sec. XVIII". It's an unusual set of cards, if anyone knows more about it it, please let me know:

Image


This one reminds me of the image posted earlier of the "Mantegna".
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#18
Image


This is the Chariot from the Vandenborre Bacchus Tarot, a Belgian Tarot. It's interesting to see the similarity in this design to the ones in the cards above; but not totally surprising. The Belgian tarot has an obvious relationship to several cards in the Bolognese pattern.

I can't tell if the Charioteer is a male or female.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#19
Lorredan wrote:OnePotato, could you hazard a guess who has fallen from the Chariot in that card? I see a tiny scorpion up there too! I have worked out most of the occupants of Chariots- but never who fell out. :( And that looks like an ark on the back or am I missing in some myth? Maybe thats a Moon child?
I never forget that Christianity was closely connected to astrology/astronomy in it's walk. After all, God lives up there :?
I think the ceiling in the Library should be like the Cistine chapel- you have the talent- have you the time?
~Lorredan~
Phaethon, the son of Apollo Helios, wanted to drive his dad's chariot across the sky more than anything else. Apollo had promised to grant him anything he wished when they met for the first time. Of course, the kid asked to drive the chariot. Apollo tried to warn him, and did his best to show him what to do, but Phaethon couldn't control it, and veered off the path. He dropped the reins when he saw scorpius, and chaos ensued. The axis of the heavens was bent, the constellations fell out of place, and the earth was scorched. Zeus hit him with a thunderbolt, and knocked Phaethon into a river.

The Sistine chapel ceiling is nice, but you can't beat a nice eggshell finish white enamel....
I am not a cannibal.

Re: Who's in the Chariot?

#20
It's interesting that the Chariot in the Jacques Vieville is different than the one in the Beligian Tarot. Most of the cards in the Belgian are directly related to the Vieville, but in this case, the Vieville chooses to match the Marseille Tarot model.

Here's the Chariot from the Jacques Vievile, the Jean Dodal, and the Jean Noblet.
Image
:

I'm not sure of what to think of the breastplates on the Vieville. What do you think, Venus??? :lol:
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

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