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Do different names mean different things? - Page 2 - Tarot History Forum

Re: Do different names mean different things?

#11
Nicky, I have to apologise for not really stressing the historical aspect of my original query. I guess I tend to see Waite-Smith as the "cut off point", at best I'd let it go to Crowley-Harris, and generally, I'm personally preoccupied with decks before these two became the "standard" (not that discussions here need necessarily be restricted to such things at all!!).

I think putting Pentacles on historical decks is downright shameful. It has no business there, but then, I don't think the historical decks should have any of the Lo Scarabeo style multi-language titles on them! Every time someone calls a Coin a Pentacle I want to ask "What the hell is a Pentacle?". Of course, on decks where that is the standard I certainly respect that and wouldn't call them a Coin either! (I might snicker, but I wouldn't call it a Coin. ;) )

And of course the Pope to High Priest and Popess to High Priestess is more of a switch in character than just a change in language and name.

But in historical terms, between Le Mat and Le Fou and Le Fol might give some indication of a difference that might add some insight into the understanding of the figure at that given time and place (or not!).
Nicole wrote: I think using the English words may lose some of the 'romance' of the deck, but how much romance is there in a Tarot of the Dolphin Mermaid Pirates anyway?
To be clear.. it is the Tarot of the Atlantean Dolphin Mermaid Goddesses:


and the Angelic Vampire Pirate Cats Tarot:


... both copyright, yours truly, 2009. :))

However, putting eyepatches on the dolphins... I could have a whole new deck to market! Hmmm.
;;)
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Do different names mean different things?

#12
I guess I should have realized this was a historical forum LOL ...

Ok so riddle me this batman...why would someone be changing coins to pentacles on a historical deck..assuming you mean decks that people are creating today that are supposed to be recreations?
Are all the historical decks coins or discs? Are some discs even? (clearly I am not a tarot historian).

Naturally the Marseilles as well as even the RWS, or Thoth, use classes of people such as Kings. Knights etc, which are pretty much obsolete in the modern world. Given that none of us lived in those times, all of our understanding is theoretical.. Ross's post, as well as numerous historical dissertations on life in those days when these persons existed, is still removed from anything we truly know. We can understand it intellectually, but we really can only guess at the day to day feel one would have as a valet or knight. The duties, interactions, essence.

I think maybe changing the names has changed the meanings slightly, but I don't think that is all bad... the world has changed and thus new titles may be a reflection of that process. That does not mean changing the historical decks is the way to go...they are supposed to be historical. If someone has a good sense of history and understands the distinction between a Knight and a Cavalier then it would be a plus to leave the title as it was originally designated.

In the cases of the Tarot of the Atlantean Dolphin Mermaid Goddesses and The Angelic Vampire Pirate Cats Tarot, card names should be done in Lemurian and Enochian languages accordingly.

How the hell did I end up on a forum with smarty pants people???
Nicky
You should never hesitate to trade your cow for a handful of magic beans.
Tom Robbins

Re: Do different names mean different things?

#13
Nicole wrote:How the hell did I end up on a forum with smarty pants people???
We know our own.
:o)
:D

I don't remember anymore who came up with Pentacles. My vague memory of it is that it was generally considered some strange mistake, and then there was a flurry about it actually being intended. The idea being some sort of magic talisman object. There are those better versed in this that will hopefully clarify the story... but yes.. shamefully.. "Pentacles" is a "modern" creation, the pre-occult decks usually used coins unless they used an entirely different suit system altogether.

Here is an example of LS's atrocious practice, note the Queen of Pentacles:


Oh the horror.. the HORROR!
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Do different names mean different things?

#14
I was studiously browsing this forum, quietly chewing on a jelly baby - then I came across the Four of Pen-tail-cles from your Angelic Vampire Pirate Cats Tarot

Hilarious :)) Then... more gales of laughter as realized that some people would probably want to own it =))

Thank you Robert, you've really brightened up my evening .:ymparty:

Bee :)

Re: Do different names mean different things?

#15
Bernice wrote:I was studiously browsing this forum, quietly chewing on a jelly baby - then I came across the Four of Pen-tail-cles from your Angelic Vampire Pirate Cats Tarot

Hilarious :)) Then... more gales of laughter as realized that some people would probably want to own it =))

Thank you Robert, you've really brightened up my evening .:ymparty:

Bee :)
Lovely to see you back Bee. :-B

I'm glad the Angelic Vampire Pirate Cat brought you some amusement. I suppose I should get to work on the Bardic Dragon Tarot of the Ancient Mayan Fairies (based on the South American Feng Shui Medicine Wheel) before another artist releases it!
:-j
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Do different names mean different things?

#18
Based on the previous posts (thank you people!) it seems that there is a distinction between Page/Knight and Valet/Cavalier.

Valet/Page:
The Valet is now coming across as someone with public status, having a declared allegiance to a recognised power. He has domestic duties or office/position, but is readily available to take up arms if called upon to do so. (Perhaps a King could be said to be a Valet to his kingdom....?).

Whereas the Page appears to be a sort of apprentice-cum-errandboy -cum -servant.


Cavalier/Knight:
I agree with Nicole & Robert re. the Cavalier. He seems more like someone with an honourable military rank, a rather 'elite' dashing soldier. Bound by oath to his Order, but otherwise a law-unto-himself.

But the Knight makes me think of a Chivalrous Champion, either high-born, or having done some outstanding deed for king/country. I would always expect impeccable conduct from this Knight.

Hello Eugim! :-h

Bee :)

Re: Do different names mean different things?

#20
debra wrote:What about Kings and Queens, then? We don't use many synonyms for them (trying to think of any other than Emperor and Empress).

Roy and Reyne in keeping with topic...does that mean something lesser than a mere translation?

Ok I have edited this twice so I am going to jump in cluelessly (one of my strong suits)

Somehow the Roy and Reyne seem more well royal...lush. Here i have no historical reason but merely a gut response.

Perhaps Kings and Queens seem more as figureheads and Roy and Reyne take me back to when the royalty were of the land as it were...

I shall stop my babbling conjecture now..
You should never hesitate to trade your cow for a handful of magic beans.
Tom Robbins
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