Re: Do different names mean different things?

#22
In addition to the 'knight' aspect of 'Cavalier', there is its far more common meaning as 'horse-rider'. Also, apart from the Sword Cavalier in various early decks, the Cavalier does not bear armour, and so may perhaps best be understood as 'horse-rider' of the suit in question, perhaps on an errand or otherwise employed.

Nicole also writes earlier that:
Naturally the Marseilles [...] use classes of people such as Kings. Knights etc, which are pretty much obsolete in the modern world. Given that none of us lived in those times, all of our understanding is theoretical
I don't agree: these 'classes' of people populate our imaginative world of our youth with fairy-tales and the like, so they remain, even if not in our adult normal habitual life, very much part of our psychological life.
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Re: Do different names mean different things?

#23
jmd wrote:In addition to the 'knight' aspect of 'Cavalier', there is its far more common meaning as 'horse-rider'. Also, apart from the Sword Cavalier in various early decks, the Cavalier does not bear armour, and so may perhaps best be understood as 'horse-rider' of the suit in question, perhaps on an errand or otherwise employed.

Nicole also writes earlier that:
Naturally the Marseilles [...] use classes of people such as Kings. Knights etc, which are pretty much obsolete in the modern world. Given that none of us lived in those times, all of our understanding is theoretical
I don't agree: these 'classes' of people populate our imaginative world of our youth with fairy-tales and the like, so they remain, even if not in our adult normal habitual life, very much part of our psychological life.
I would add that, especially in the later 14th century and throughout the 15th century all over Europe, those classes tried to emulate an ideal of chivalry which is very much like the fairy-tale ideal of Knighthood we still imagine today, following on the Charlemagne and Arthurian cycles (the "matters" of France and Britain).

Chevalier does indeed mean "horseman", but that term in itself means more than just any guy who rides a horse - although if a horseman approaches you on the road, how are you to know if he is a horse-thief or a knight?
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Re: Do different names mean different things?

#24
Ross G. R. Caldwell wrote:Chevalier does indeed mean "horseman", but that term in itself means more than just any guy who rides a horse - although if a horseman approaches you on the road, how are you to know if he is a horse-thief or a knight?
I agree, Ross... and indeed could also be a farmer or a compagnon on his journey from one to another location, 'holding' in his hands the exemplar of his trade.
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Re: Do different names mean different things?

#25
jmd wrote: Nicole also writes earlier that:
Naturally the Marseilles [...] use classes of people such as Kings. Knights etc, which are pretty much obsolete in the modern world. Given that none of us lived in those times, all of our understanding is theoretical
I don't agree: these 'classes' of people populate our imaginative world of our youth with fairy-tales and the like, so they remain, even if not in our adult normal habitual life, very much part of our psychological life.
As does Roy and Reine, but somehow the King and Queen do not have the same connotation for me ... When I think of Roy and Reine it takes me back to the fairy tale world you mentioned. When I think King and Queen it becomes more based in history and not anywhere as romantic... it may be just as simple as being in different language for me, but I don't think so..
You should never hesitate to trade your cow for a handful of magic beans.
Tom Robbins

Re: Do different names mean different things?

#26
Hello all,
Nicole wrote:As does Roy and Reine, but somehow the King and Queen do not have the same connotation for me ... When I think of Roy and Reine it takes me back to the fairy tale world you mentioned. When I think King and Queen it becomes more based in history and not anywhere as romantic... it may be just as simple as being in different language for me, but I don't think so..

I may be missing something here, but in order for ‘Roi’ to mean something different from ‘King’ these words would have to elicit different semantic memories in us. This would only be possible if a person has access to both words because he or she speaks both languages, in which case this person may have attached several different experiential memories to each word. This could make each noun feel different at subjective level. For example, the word Queen could bring Elizabeth to mind, while Reina would bring Isabel de Castilla up. But these experiential memories could be a lot more complex: in the mind of someone the word ‘Royne’ could elicit a certain nostalgic mood the person experienced while walking through Versailles the day after breaking up with her boyfriend; while for the same person the world ‘Queen’ could evoke the image of a half-filed bathtub in WWII. Still, I would see this as something that enriches the semantic field of these words, and only for that person, not as something that elicits completely different images from one word to the other one, since both Isabel de Castilla and Elizabeth exist within the same semantic category.

At an objective level, or from the perspective of a person who speaks only one of these languages and has no way of envisioning both words simultaneously, ‘King’ or ‘Rey’ are just the nouns that person has to represent a very specific figure. ‘King’ translates into ‘Rey’ and ‘Rey’ translates into ‘King’. This is not different from saying ‘president’ or ‘presidente’, ‘house’ or ‘casa’, ‘horse’ or ‘caballo’, etc.

Best,


EE
What’s honeymoon salad? Lettuce alone
Don’t look now, mayonnaise is dressing!

Re: Do different names mean different things?

#27
EnriqueEnriquez wrote:Hello all,
Nicole wrote:As does Roy and Reine, but somehow the King and Queen do not have the same connotation for me ... When I think of Roy and Reine it takes me back to the fairy tale world you mentioned. When I think King and Queen it becomes more based in history and not anywhere as romantic... it may be just as simple as being in different language for me, but I don't think so..

I may be missing something here, but in order for ‘Roi’ to mean something different from ‘King’ these words would have to elicit different semantic memories in us. This would only be possible if a person has access to both words because he or she speaks both languages, in which case this person may have attached several different experiential memories to each word. This could make each noun feel different at subjective level. For example, the word Queen could bring Elizabeth to mind, while Reina would bring Isabel de Castilla up. But these experiential memories could be a lot more complex: in the mind of someone the word ‘Royne’ could elicit a certain nostalgic mood the person experienced while walking through Versailles the day after breaking up with her boyfriend; while for the same person the world ‘Queen’ could evoke the image of a half-filed bathtub in WWII. Still, I would see this as something that enriches the semantic field of these words, and only for that person, not as something that elicits completely different images from one word to the other one, since both Isabel de Castilla and Elizabeth exist within the same semantic category.

At an objective level, or from the perspective of a person who speaks only one of these languages and has no way of envisioning both words simultaneously, ‘King’ or ‘Rey’ are just the nouns that person has to represent a very specific figure. ‘King’ translates into ‘Rey’ and ‘Rey’ translates into ‘King’. This is not different from saying ‘president’ or ‘presidente’, ‘house’ or ‘casa’, ‘horse’ or ‘caballo’, etc.

Best,


EE

Correct and correct but still... casa seems warmer to me than house...
Truly, I can only add to the discussion in gut feelings and no facts .

Americans have different ways of saying things. They say "elevator", we say "lift" ... they say "President", we say "stupid psychopathic git" --Alexi Sayle

Nicky
You should never hesitate to trade your cow for a handful of magic beans.
Tom Robbins

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