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Posted: 25 May 2009, 22:28
* Plato in his Timaeus describes the embodied human soul enmeshed by worldliness as anatrope (upside down).

( I can t find the whole paragraph in the site I found,so if a "benevolent " Soul here,can help me to find it,I will appreciate it too much.)
May be you JMD ?

- So that do for me a link between the upside down man at XII and the XXI card.
The Soul of the man is bewildered with the things of this world.
The row from this card to XXI explains how the Soul is liberated gradually and then finally infuse in the World Soul.

Re: Timaeus

Posted: 25 May 2009, 23:42
* So following this,the blue figure emerging from the tomb is for me the Soul.
We can see that the two others figures have a colour closer to matter.
CONVER- LE IUGEMENT.jpg (27.61 KiB) Viewed 5819 times

Re: Timaeus

Posted: 26 May 2009, 00:56
by jmd
Again, there's more likely an element of depicted 'realism' here:

The body clearly arising from the grave is dead, hence bloodless, hence 'bluish' in skin-tone. So the final judgement call suggests that the body of the dead is being raised. The 'colour symbolism' here is likely far more literally realistic than symbolic - the symbolism given by the card as a whole, signifying the last judgement.

Of course, the other two figures, by comparison to other representation of the Last Judgement, are also emerging from graves. This is not, however, clear from the woodcut, and we could expect that between the strengthening needs of the cut-outs and therefore the need to apply different colours, a practical yet still realistic compromise was reached - and other decks, in any case, show the whole three figures normal skin-toned.

Re: Timaeus

Posted: 26 May 2009, 01:08
by robert
Of course, when the bigger picture is considered, we can also see other examples as well, such as the Jean Noblet tarot where indeed all three figures are flesh colured:

Re: Timaeus

Posted: 30 May 2009, 22:06
* JMD:
I am agree with you,but Tarot de Marseille just for me has realistic and symbolic depiction "together" mon frere ...

* Robert:
I was talking closest regarding to Conver mon ami ...

Re: Timaeus

Posted: 20 Jun 2009, 13:28
by beanu
I don't have the quote handy either, but there is a good chance that the hanged man represents the soul, inverted, entering into human/ material form. - Plato's concept.
And the World likely represents Plato's World Soul. It sort of explains the woman dancing, instead of a lump of dirt or rock or some such.

Part of my theory, which I won;t bore you with here, is that some of the majors refer to the descent of soul/spirit into materialism, and so represent the rise back up as we try to "go home". For me the hanged man is descent, The wold is the common point between both, and Judgement is the ascent, with the souls rising up from their death, as promised.


Re: Timaeus

Posted: 20 Jun 2009, 13:32
by beanu
If you are interested in Tarot and Plato,
consider the Chariot and Plato's description of the intellect trying to contorl the fair and ugly horse pair of the emotions.

There are also vague possible connections to Plato with Justice, and Temperance.

And eve vaguer - The Hermit as representing the Gnostics, as part of the neo-platonic revival(s)

Re: Timaeus

Posted: 20 Jun 2009, 13:47
**** Handclaps to yyyyyyyou Beaaaunu !

Re: Timaeus

Posted: 20 Jun 2009, 14:19
by jmd
Plato's three parts of the Soul (especially as described in the Phaedrus) and the Chariot are indeed a great fit - and I (along with others) have mentioned this on AT and other places over the years.

With the World, though one can interpret the imagery in a manner that reflects a Platonic view of the Soul of the World, the early imagery is too removed to be intended as such.

Re: Timaeus

Posted: 20 Jun 2009, 17:59
* tell it as it road...

1- The Soul of US climb,or better do the return to " its " home at XXI .
That is just for me the whole matter of the sequence.
2-From I to X we ARE "at" the Wheel of fortune,ad that its means ours actions returning forever.
3-At XI we learn how manage force to or for
4-Gained that we work ahead just not for us better and only for the others.