Re: Regarding colours

#31
Marcei wrote:Thank you, Robert.

Unfortunately I have yet to order that deck. I look forward to doing so and reading the booklet that you mention. I do have the earlier hand-printed majors and some information including the verse on color that Jean Claude published a while back. I don't however, remember anything that addressed the elements of specific images including the flesh and clothing I mentioned.
He goes into greater depth than just the poem, so hopefully someone will put it up for us. If not, I can certainly get to it after my essay is written (I'm terribly behind and keep coming here instead of reading and writing!!! Damn, why isn't there a degree in tarot history!? Who the hell cares about Victorian Transportation?!!).
Marcei wrote:While I love reading history, I make no pretense of being a historian. Perhapes I am really out of place in stating my observations on this forum, but I think you guys are tough enough to tolerate a divergent point of view from time to time.
I don't think you're out of place at all, and besides Ross, I don't think there's an actual historian among us. So forget that thinking! I think much of this comes down to the reason we are exploring tarot history, and our approaches to it. I have no agenda or personal theory (other than the lack of numbers and titles on the early Tarot de Marseille, and even that I am still just exploring), but my goal is to find "the historical truth", I want to know what actually happened and to solve the many mysteries that still do survive about the creation of this wonderful set of cards.

In this particular case, I'd be absolutely happy to see a sensible key to explain colour symbolism used in the tarot, but based on actually looking at the cards and the use of colour, and comparing different decks, I'm not inclined to believe there actually is one. Eugim has mentioned yellow shows on the Bateleur.. and hinted that it must mean something, but then we have the Noblet without the yellow shoes.. and if the yellow means something on the shoes, then shouldn't it "mean" something everywhere that it is used? And if so, the meaning will have to be explained as well for the Yellow Belt on the Bateleur, and the Yellow Bag on the table, and the one Yellow Cup, and the Yellow Knife.. and that's just on the Bateleur card (these last references from the Noblet). If we are going to say that the "Yellow Knife" means something, then it should be reflected in the other uses as well shouldn't it? And on top of that we would need to explain why only some decks have it that colour, and others don't.

Of course, some colours just "make sense", like colouring the Sun yellow, indeed, it might be meaningful if every deck coloured it red! But event then, how can we say that Yellow= x and Red = y, but only apply it to things that we think are important and ignore all the other uses of it?

So, I'm not closed minded about a colour system, and I do believe that colour had meaning then, just as it does now, and that traditions were followed (red on the pope)... but I just don't see any evidence of a system of "meaning" in the use of colours, and when people say that there is one, then they really should step forward and share it and not leave it. How can we evaluate and test the theory if the theory isn't even presented?
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Regarding colours

#32
Thanks, Robert, for validating my presence here.

Just an aside regarding the yellow sun: I have always wondered if the later version of the sun having multi-colored rays came about because of Newton's experiments at Cambridge in 1665 which revealed the multi-colored wavelengths of light.

Re: Regarding colours

#33
* Hello Enrique:

. You said " Where is the hypothesis ? "

- The whole point for me as I said,is that I think that was a election of certain colours instead of others.
There was a decision.
Someone choose colours for both shoes instead of others.
That is consistent in the vast proportions of Tarot de Marseille decks.

- As you right said,sky was blue a a realistic use of colours.
And btw,at Tarot de Marseille we have sky showed without any colour so we have the base colour of the paper
The XVIII depicts a night scene but also has that colour based of the paper...
The XVII also.
So that is symbolism for me : Election to colour or not.
And if a single element of a card is coloured,I thik was not arbitrary.

PS: I dont see your post to me as a attack...
I if saw it like this,you know me very well.

* I am smoking my peace pipe now Enrique .


Miguel
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Regarding colours

#34
* Robert said : " Jean-Claude's ideas of colour are listed on pages 7-11 of the booklet that comes with the 78 Jean Noblet Tarot. I don't have time right now to scan or retype it, but perhaps someone (Eugim I believe has the deck) might be able to scan it and put it up ? "

- tomorrow I will mon cherie ami !

Eugimyhendrix
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Regarding colours

#35
Hello all,

It seem to me that both Eugim and Marcei are expressing a similar point of view which can be resumed as follows:
EUGIM wrote: - The whole point for me as I said,is that I think that was a election of certain colours instead of others.
There was a decision.
Someone choose colours for both shoes instead of others.
That is consistent in the vast proportions of Tarot de Marseille decks.
I think that no one would argue against that.

What can be argued -what I am arguing- is that this doesn’t automatically implies a symbolic intention behind such conscious decision. Consistency in the tarot’s color scheme doesn’t precludes a representational or even decorative use of colors. Are the colors in the tarot an intentional choice? Yes. No one will discuss that. What we are arguing here is which intention. Some members here, me included, have stated the reasons why such symbolic intention may not be present. On the other hand , Eugim’s initial observation: “All Bateleurs have yellow shoes” (BTW, this would be a great title for a song) isn’t a sound argument to suggest any symbolic use of color in the tarot. Why? Well, Robert put it better than I ever could:
robert wrote:Eugim has mentioned yellow shows on the Bateleur.. and hinted that it must mean something, but then we have the Noblet without the yellow shoes.. and if the yellow means something on the shoes, then shouldn't it "mean" something everywhere that it is used? And if so, the meaning will have to be explained as well for the Yellow Belt on the Bateleur, and the Yellow Bag on the table, and the one Yellow Cup, and the Yellow Knife.. and that's just on the Bateleur card (these last references from the Noblet). If we are going to say that the "Yellow Knife" means something, then it should be reflected in the other uses as well shouldn't it? And on top of that we would need to explain why only some decks have it that colour, and others don't.
The evidence Eugim offers: “All Bateleurs have yellow shoes” can’t be extended into a comprehensive system able to provide intelligible messages, which is the final test for any code to: a) exists and b) work. If we were to build up on his thesis and analyze each card by assigning symbolic meaning with each color in it we would end up with an entanglement of messages that sooner or later will contradict themselves, leaving us more confused than before. It is very unlikely that such strategy will provide us with any further understanding of the tarot.

However, Eugim’s train of thought is very useful for readings. By comparing how an object changes color from one card into to another one color can help us create narratives because one important quality of color is that it can lend its symbolic qualities to any object it covers. So, in a reading, I can point out Le Fov’s red shoes and say “Le Fov is walking, and he has red shoes because his feet are active. When he stops, as in Le Bateleur, his feet become yellow, a color that suggests maturity, as in things that are ready to be harvested. In other words, by looking a the shoes of these two characters we could say that going from Le Fov to Le Bateleur suggest us to stop running around so we can find that place in which we can stand and become prosperous. This is a message about the maturity that comes along with commitment”. That message can be useful to a client and it can be linked 100% to the cards, and the color of these shoes. Used this way, color symbolism becomes very useful because it is tapping into learning the person previously had: we all have experienced the process of a fruit becoming ripe so, we all know that a change of color implies a change of state. Describing colors in this manner is an stupendous way of eliciting ‘yes’ responses that can be linked to a message that, even though can’t be seen in the cards, will be accepted as part of the whole package: “going from red to yellow means it is time for commitment.” We can all do that, but I can’t claim this to have any historic validity. I am making it up by arbitrarily ignoring the rest of the card’s details. There is no evidence of such a message being contained in the tarot because there is not even any historical evidence suggesting that the tarot was intended to carry that kind of messages: “On the surface this may be The Fool, but the color green really means ‘Brother Bratislav, don’t forget the yogurt’”. Based on what we know about gaming, what purpose could such code serve? Looking at the tarot with fortuneteller’s eyes can be great for readings but it is bad for history.

It will be great to see a well developed hypothesis about the tarot’ color scheme, symbolic, representational, decorative or otherwise. I don’t think “All Bateleurs have yellow shoes” is a good beginning to accomplish that.

That’s all.


All my best,


EE
What’s honeymoon salad? Lettuce alone
Don’t look now, mayonnaise is dressing!

Re: Regarding colours

#36
* It s fine too me also...

1- You said what you wanna.
2- I said also.

" Just for me BLACK IS BLACK "
. If we will threw each other Dummett evidences,I am lost because I have not your sources my friend ...

- i DON T want to be banned again please E.E. !

- I told earlier to RAH ...

. And this is the " little " difference ". / I "need" to be here.

Migue
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Regarding colours

#38
Hi Eugim,

Just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean that they are challenging you personally, it just means they don't agree with you on this subject. Many of us disagree with each other on a lot of things.

You brought up the Yellow Shoes, I used it when disagreeing with you on the subject, and Enrique, I think, was just following the discussion.

We can disagree... but still be friends and be friendly.

cheers,
robert
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Regarding colours

#40
* For example,regarding the walking stick of LE HERMIT,I can see that it is red in all the decks except Noblet.

- I don t believe that red was the realistic colour depiction.
So why it is red ?
- Red is also the walking stick of LE MAT

- Red in medieval mind was a positive colour,full of energy.
Was a depiction of Christ blood,a symbolism of salvation.
Also the colour one of the last stage of Alchemy work,the rubedo.
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

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