Re: Nicolas Conver code bars

#52
* You Robert "moved" away as usual,the question within...
I am agree with Yves.
Conver has a code within,and I am trying to decode.

1-We have regarding Conver 5 of 22 cards bar coded.
2- So I return to the whole pack of 22 to analyze the different mode that Conver used to name the cards.
This an scheme of it.

---------------------------------------
LE * MAT

I- LE * BATELEUR

II- LA * PAPESSE
---------------------------------------------------------
III- LIMPERATRISE
-------------------------------------------------------------
IIII- L ´EMPERUP
------------------------------------------------------------------------
V- LE * PAPE
---------------------------------------------------------------------
VI- LAMOVREVX - bars
-------------------------------------------------------------------
VII- LE CHARIOT

VIII- LA JUSTICE - bars
---------------------------------------------------------------------
VIIII- L ´ HERMITE
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
X- LA ROVE * DE * FORTVNE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
XI- LA * FORCE - bars
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
XII- LE * PENDU
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ARCAN SANS NOM
-----------------------------------------------------------
XIIII- TEMPERANCE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
XV- LE * DIABLE
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
XVI- LA * MAISON * DIEV
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
XVII- LE TOILLE
-----------------------------------------------------
XVIII- LA * LUNE - bars

XVIIII- LE * SOLEIL - bars
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
XX- LE * IUGEMENT

XXI- LE * MONDE
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Nicolas Conver code bars

#53
-The cross finding trial:

LE * MAT // As, I,II,III,V,XI ( bars),XII,XV,XVIII (bars),XVIIII, (bars)XX,XXI
--------------------------------------------------------
III- LIMPERATRISE // As, VI (bars) and XIIII
-------------------------------------------------------------
IIII- L ´EMPERUP // As, VIIII
------------------------------------------------------------------------
VI- LAMOVREVX - bars
-------------------------------------------------------------------
VII- LE CHARIOT // As, VIII (bars) and XVII
---------------------------------------------------------------------
X- LA * ROVE * DE * FORTVNE
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
XVI - LA * MAISON * DIEV


- The use of U instead of V,involve an intention of Conver.
Because is more easy to engrave a V than a U.
So why Conver took his time and effort to do that differences ?

- The ( * ) use supposition for separate words is not conclusive,because we have the example of cards VII,VIII and XVII
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: Nicolas Conver code bars

#54
On the letters U and V, perhaps I should highlight a very old 2003 thread on AT, in which ihcoyc writes:
The older general printing rule for lower ca∫e was that 'v' was always v∫ed at the beginning of a word; 'u' everywhere el∫e. In vpper ca∫e, 'V' was the only letter that exi∫ted.

A ∫imilar rule gouerned 'i' and 'j'. 'I' is the only vpperca∫e letter; in lower ca∫e, 'j' only appears at the end of a long ∫equence of 'i's. This is important mo∫tly in Latin, where many words end in -ij.

Not at all ∫ure how this impacts the Mar∫eilles deck v∫age of the two letters
Again, this is not meant as a direct explanation of the points raised earlier, but rather to realise that in the context of the times the clarity of distinction that we have between the 'V' and 'U' is relatively modern.
Image
&
Image
association.tarotstudies.org

Re: Nicolas Conver code bars

#55
There is some material on this on Kris Hadar's site:-
http://www.krishadar.com/A/Index1A.asp

The relevant material is only available in the Member's section, but you can enrol as a Passive Member for free. Alain Bocher discusses this in page 3 of his Tarot Course, and believes that the bar codes indicate majors that have a connection with the card showing the code. Bocher maintains that they were placed there deliberately.

I had never noticed these codes before, so I examined my own Marseilles style decks, of which I have three - the Jean Noblet, the Camoin/Jodorowsky, and a Grimaud Marselles. Only the Camoin has the codes.

Bocher has produced an appealing modern deck based upon the Marseilles, called the 'Tarot de la Rea':-
http://www.themysticeye.com/pics/delarea.htm
I think that it is very attractive, but it does not seem to be easily available.

Re: Nicolas Conver code bars

#57
New postby robert on Sat May 23, 2009 7:39 am
(...)
The "gist" I have from what was mentioned earlier, what I see on the site, and what I am guessing is that Abbot Suger, from the Cluny monastery, invented tarot, and put a secret code into the Tarot de Marseille II as seen in Conver, that is, like a bar code in the title areas??? Yeah? @-)


From the Saint-Denis monastery actually.
Rom
Absum!

Re: Nicolas Conver code bars

#58
Marc O. Rainville wrote:New postby robert on Sat May 23, 2009 7:39 am
(...)
The "gist" I have from what was mentioned earlier, what I see on the site, and what I am guessing is that Abbot Suger, from the Cluny monastery, invented tarot, and put a secret code into the Tarot de Marseille II as seen in Conver, that is, like a bar code in the title areas??? Yeah? @-)


From the Saint-Denis monastery actually.
Thank you for the correction Marc. I don't know why I was thinking about Cluny. I remember suggesting Cluny several years ago with Jean-MIchel as a possible source of the Tarot. I had just returned from a trip to Europe and had picked up a book on Cluny, and was fascinated by what seems to have been an incredibly remarkable place and period in time. I read several chapters of the book, and Suger is probably mentioned in it discussing a visit, but for some reason I had it in my mind that Suger was an abbot there. I must have also been reading about Suger at the same time, because the two were fused in my mind... wrong! Thanks for setting the record straight. Now I'll have to read more about St. Denis, which I also remember finding incredibly interesting.

Cheers.
The Tarot will lose all its vitality for one who allows himself to be side-tracked by its pedantry. - Aleister Crowley

Re: Nicolas Conver code bars

#59
Cher Robert,
Merci d'être such a gentleman. And hello also to Yves and Ross and Eugim and Michael. The abbott in Cluny at the time of Suger was the Benedictine Pierre le Vénérable. These two together with Bernard de Clairvaux, a Cistercian, are said by French historian Alain Demurger to have been instrumental in the maintenance, from Europe, of the early Templars. I bring in the Templars here because I believe that no good narrative about the Tarot should try to do without them.
Did I ever mention the Modern Egyptian (XIIth century)connection ? And the Gypsies ? It's all on my blog. The only thing you wont find in my theory is stuff from before the XIIth century. I have an agreement with the Marseilles Tarot lord Philippe T.-C. to leave all that is before the XIIth to him. Right after we virtually shook hand on that, he started digging and came up with the monk Cassien. *-:) I hear now that he is indeed going to bring us back to the feminine. BTW, the feminine person at the center of Le monde is really Jesus-Christ. You can tell because of his breasts. XIIth century fashion had it that Jesus should wear them in the iconography. Chek the Quadrige d’Aminabab (by Suger) stained window in Saint-Denis or my blog http://tarotchoco.quebecblogue.com/2009 ... -le-monde/, you'll see Jesus on the cross with breasts.
Image
Image

Interestingly, both Jesus - the one in Tarot XXI and the one in the stained window- are surounded in each corner by the four Animals. Of course, the fact that the ¨lady¨ in XXI has her legs crossed is probably an other cue about her alter ego, the cross on wich he, Jesus-Christ, is said to have died.
Image
Image

I believe this gem of a finding will :ar! put me in good standing on this terrace.
But I digress. The bars on the major Arcanas, the Trumps, help in the mathematical solutions. Can't do without them. I have a page on my blog with the solutions. I promise I will translate all when I retire. You see, I work for a professional translator who pays me a handsome fee to assist her in, but never mind that. I'm not going to translate my blog now because I have enough on his plate with translating. And I still have to finish decoding the 16 Honneurs.
Unless somebody wants to hire me now...
With the main cipher of the code, La papesse decodes as 17 (LA*PAPESSE: (12+1)x 2= 26. 16+1+16+5+5= 43. 43-26= 17.)because it is not just a roman II (2) up there in the top cartouche, but also a 17. :-?? With the second cipher, it decodes (S+S=38=11=2)as II (2). And yes, she has a large wiener crossing from shoulder to shoulder, a private joke between monks that sounds only good in Latin.
Image

Tarot de Marseille de Nicolas Conver by Héron
:-h
Rom
Absum!

Re: Nicolas Conver code bars

#60
Hello!

this is my first post in this prestigious forum. Please forgive my approximate english...

The reason why I dare to post anything at all in this intimidating place is that I was very surprised to find this picture on page 1 of this thread (with the 22 « cartouches » where are encarved the names. BTW, how do you call these, in english : 'title blocks' ? )

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/4937 ... es1200.jpg

I made up (copy/paste) this image, a few years ago. Not for studying these strange "bar codes", but because I was very intrigued by these "cartouches" in the Conver. More (this will probably seem a bit ridiculous, but who cares) : for me, at the time, some of the letters (a few) had a shape which somehow resonated with the card itself, in its entirety, or an aspect of it.

Anyway, back to the letters : let's compare Conver with the Dodal, for example. (Robert posted a few images in page 5 : viewtopic.php?f=12&t=226&hilit=Building ... t=40#p2843 ) The letters there (Dodal) have globally an homogeneous aspect.

The letters of the Conver / V.T. , on the contrary, are extremely different. Some are very delicate, exquisitely shaped. Some are very rough. There are many 'E', with various thickness. Some seem even unskiful, clumsy. Some are incredibly precise, very thin.

So, have they been engraved by several engravers ? The name of the card being carved by someone else that the image itself (and if so, was it usual or unusual in the workshops ? ) Or would there have been a problem (wear etc.) with the woodblock (the letters are so thin), and some had to be replaced / fixed at some point? Though the woodblocks (exemple posted by jmd here http://www.fourhares.com/images/conver-woodblock.jpg ) seem untouched from the beginning.

I don't believe the « bar codes » have a special meaning, but that's just an opinion. They are surprising, though. Could this be to attract our attention on a slight detail of the card ?The only meaning for these I can see, is that the name « LA FORCE » is right under the foot of the character, on the left. Is it why the bars are here (on the right of the block) for ?

Regards

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron