The name at the Ace of Coins shows "...PERI," it may start with a C at the upper end.
Kaplan's list of Italian makers doesn't give any suitable candidates. Only "Lattanzio LAMPERTI" (p. 222) in Milan, mid-19th century. This is clearly too late.
Re: help identification tarot of marseilles
12"IMPERIALI" looks possible.Huck wrote: 23 Apr 2021, 10:07 One can identify the elephant at the 4 of coins. This type of small animals was used already in 17th century, I think.
There is a half name at the Ace of coins and this not at the Kaplan deck. ....PERI...
A "Vincenzo Imperiali" appears variously in Franco Pratesi articles
https://www.google.com/search?client=op ... 8&oe=UTF-8
Huck
http://trionfi.com
http://trionfi.com
Re: help identification tarot of marseilles
13To me it most resembles the Lucca Minchiate. Either it or the Lucca Tarocchi, or both, is dated fairly precisely to 1722-1745. My memory is a little fuzzy on this issue.
Here is one sample of this style, from Christie's catalog for the auction of the Kaplan collection. I don't know if this particular one is a minchiate or a tarocchi. They are very similar, except for the knights, of course.
http://askalexander.org/display/22146/C ... 4?pw=Orfeo
I know very little about the Ligurian minchiate, only that existed and was called by some strange name like "Ganellini". Ah, yes:
http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=310&lng=ENG
There are other examples of the Lucca Minchiate on the web. I have to download the pages and edit them, because they are mixed up with tarocchi. I don't recall a Piedmont Minchiate, but that, too, requires some looking. We don't pay enough attention to minchiate on this forum. It's not in Bianca's garden.
Here is one sample of this style, from Christie's catalog for the auction of the Kaplan collection. I don't know if this particular one is a minchiate or a tarocchi. They are very similar, except for the knights, of course.
http://askalexander.org/display/22146/C ... 4?pw=Orfeo
I know very little about the Ligurian minchiate, only that existed and was called by some strange name like "Ganellini". Ah, yes:
http://www.letarot.it/page.aspx?id=310&lng=ENG
There are other examples of the Lucca Minchiate on the web. I have to download the pages and edit them, because they are mixed up with tarocchi. I don't recall a Piedmont Minchiate, but that, too, requires some looking. We don't pay enough attention to minchiate on this forum. It's not in Bianca's garden.
Re: help identification tarot of marseilles
14There we have the elephant at the 4 of coins at a deck of the Lucca Tarocchi.
But we have no "...Peri..." or another scripture at the Ace of coins.
The Lucca deck has horsemen, not mixied animal-humans.
Huck
http://trionfi.com
http://trionfi.com
Re: help identification tarot of marseilles
15There are pictures that are specifically Lucca Minchiate in The Playing Card for Oct.-Dec. 2017, pp. 65-747 "The Orfeo Conundrum" by Giobattista Monzali. I did write extensively about this great article at viewtopic.php?p=19896#p19896. I am still reluctant to reproduce the pictures here, both because they are from his private collection and also because The Playing Card is a journal for members, doesn't depend on libraries for subscriptions, and costs money to produce. But if you spend the 13 Euros, the International Playing Card Society might give you a pdf of the issue. Also, you can ask your question again on their forum, which is read mainly by collectors.
I notice from Andrea's article that the Ligurian minchiate was written about in the 17th century.
Added a little later. There is also Pratesi's "Playing Cards in Lucca," http://naibi.net/A/59-LUCCA-Z.pdf with a list of playing card producers there, 1716-1800. No "Peri-" in either this article or Monzali.
I notice from Andrea's article that the Ligurian minchiate was written about in the 17th century.
Added a little later. There is also Pratesi's "Playing Cards in Lucca," http://naibi.net/A/59-LUCCA-Z.pdf with a list of playing card producers there, 1716-1800. No "Peri-" in either this article or Monzali.
Last edited by mikeh on 23 Apr 2021, 11:36, edited 1 time in total.
Re: help identification tarot of marseilles
16The Lucca minchiate, of course, does have mixed animal-humans. Just for you, Huck, I will violate my self-imposed rule and conjure one up for you, from the private collection. The tarocchi and minchiate images are quite similar, except of course for the cavaliers. There were two types, (of both?), A and B.
Re: help identification tarot of marseilles
17Well, OK, just to confirm the match, here are two more, which Monzali says are from the Minchiate. I won't bother with the third, since it isn't one of the cards stuffed into the binding. The idea that those might be 17th century Ligurian is really interesting, or even of Piedmont (which, since it was closely connected with France, might relate it to the somewhat similar Anonymous Tarot of Paris, early 17th century). But they certainly look Luccan. I don't suppose the designs changed much over time.
Re: help identification tarot of marseilles
18And, just to show the coins, with the card maker's name Giovannelli, a name registered 1722-1745 in Lucca in two generations.
Re: help identification tarot of marseilles
19I don't see another post of mine published with these photos.In the block of paper recycled to create the cardboard of the league there is a sheet with the writing le mat l empereur, and a letter written in French, which has nothing to do with either the cards or the manuscript but at least places them in the area French
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DpfzEhB7Wrmqy6Mk9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/DpfzEhB7Wrmqy6Mk9
Re: help identification tarot of marseilles
20rosele wrote: 23 Apr 2021, 12:51 I don't see another post of mine published with these photos.In the block of paper recycled to create the cardboard of the league there is a sheet with the writing le mat l empereur, and a letter written in French, which has nothing to do with either the cards or the manuscript but at least places them in the area French
8 Justice, 7 Force, 6 Temperance, 5 Love, 4 Emperor is part of the Minchiate order. These 5 cards appear not in the Lucca Tarocchi.
http://a.trionfi.eu/WWPCM/decks07/d05114/d05114.htm ... very similar
Very similar in the trumps, but the 4 of coins has no elephants and the Ace of coins has no scripture. It is the same or similar deck, to which already Ross has pointed to at Kaplan II. p. 262-66WWPCM05114
"Al Leone" (Bologna, )
deck "Minchiate Fiorentine" (97 cards), c.1790
1. WWPCM05114/01: reprint by "Edizioni del Prado"/Ediciones del Prado, Madrid, Spain:
deck "Minchiate Fiorentine Al Leone", 2004
dimension 60x105 mm.
The writing seems to be ...
Le bateleur
le mat
l'impereur 4
(can't read this last line)
A Marseille Tarot Fool
hm ... what are the backs of the Minchiate cards?
Huck
http://trionfi.com
http://trionfi.com