Re: The Penis on the Popess

#11
I agree with Michael's comment that [my emphasis]:
To enjoy such diversions is to be entertained even as the cardmaker might have been; to attribute greater significance to such side-shows is to forget about Tarot.
So the questions are (for me at any rate): Does the Papess intentionally incorporate, as part of its design, the symbolic representation of a penis? To which I would without hesitation reply in the negative.

On the other hand, do some decks, such as the Conver, possibly display that the woodcutters, seeing something more than intended, decided to even accentuate this as a bit of a private 'joke' that has no symbolic intent (other than the equivalent to what RAH posted above)? I would answer in that it is likely, and if not in this specific case, we should certainly be able to find such examples in other decks made, it should be recalled, for the mass market, and not carefully handpainted for the privileged.
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Re: The Penis on the Popess

#14
I have been asked to move a section of this thread to a more appropriate area for such discussions. The thread has not been locked, but further discussion of that type (if any) will hopefully continue over there and this thread may return to the subject being discussed, should anyone choose to continue it.

The missing portion can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=191

The Penis on the Popess

#15
Returning to the image,I think that "this" is part of the garment.
May be an animal furry tail like a fox ( don t be dirty please here... )

* Conver shows clearly that the glande of the supposed penis is where that element clinch to the garment.
(Just see the Madenie also )
CONVER-LE . PAPESSE.jpg
CONVER-LE . PAPESSE.jpg (26.97 KiB) Viewed 3248 times
The Universe is like a Mamushka.

Re: The Penis on the Popess

#16
SteveM wrote:
debra wrote:It doesn't seem to be in the right location for all that, though.
No need for it to be too graphic - impregnation by the word is sufficiently symbolised by the 'ploughed fields' of ink in the open book on her lap; such is sufficient, with or without penis.
With penis we could read it as the meeting of the Word (book) and flesh (penis).

It is after all a cycle of christian salvation of which the birth of the divine in human form is fundamental, even the numerical structure reflects to the symbolism of such, in the 77 generations from the fall through adam to salvation in Christ that is traditionally divided into a split of 21 generations to abraham and 56 from him to Christ - the tree (tarocchi) of life; a common element btw, of many a triumphal pageant of certain types.

The soul in exile, the wandering fool (tarocchi) will be restored to its home, to paradise, via the tree of life (tarocchi). Thus we have a play on words on two meanings of the word tarocchi, as 'tree of life' (in 77 generations from fall to salvation 21/56) and 'fool' (the soul in exile on a journey between fall and restoration).

The branch from the tree of life taken by fallen man (the verge de jacob in hand of the bateleur) comes to fruition through the salvation in Jesus Christ and our resurrection in the world to come (the rod in the hand of eve redeemed in the restoration of the world to come).
Or perhaps in the case of TdMII style, the civic Vergo, the city Maid (cities were commonly represented by Maids, in pageants for example, as city Maid this would bring her into the context of older decks with show as city, the city of God, New Jerusalem, platonic ideal city as bride and maid) - there is the common word play between the Verge de Jacob commencing the series, and the civic Vergo ending it. This pun was a common one played out in biblical commentaries on the the Tree (tarocchi) of Jesse, the verge and the virgin (and here both together in our virgin with verge, popesse with penis).

SteveM
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Penis on the Popess

#17
I'm not sure what this thread is really attempting to do any more...

My impression at first was an acknowledgement that the image in some (but not all) decks, especially of the Tarot de Marseille-II type, have a rather ambiguous depiction that may even have been seen by its makers as bringing to mind the penis.

How I'm now reading Steve is that (please correct me if I'm reading more into it than you intended) the image has an intended penile depiction thereon, and that we can somehow support this by the various puns that we can find between, for example, 'verge' and 'vierge', etc. I suppose that in that sense, it is even possible to suggest that the Dodal's title of the Papesse ('Pance') is further evidence as pointing to the paunch of the womb, implying, of sorts, the impregnating effect of the penis.

Frankly, I just think that's going beyond what is likely actually depicted and intended. Of course it is possible that individuals working on one or another deck had the pleasure of the ambiguity in mind, but that is far different to having an intentional symbolic depiction.
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Re: The Penis on the Popess

#18
Is it not the unicorn terrace? What we supposed to do here, say 'there is no unicorn' and leave it that? Hardly my idea of a unicorn hunt.
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

Re: The Penis on the Popess

#20
A play of light, a play on words: Not only is there a unicorn, but in this instance, just as the myth has it, it is a virgin that caught it;)
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot

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