Daphne riddle

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Daphne riddle

Postby Huck on 21 Jul 2016, 11:33

Daphne and its development during 15th century is a riddle inside the Trionfi card development. She appears as a central card in the Michelino deck.

In the translation of Ross Caldwell from the text of Martiano da Tortona:
http://trionfi.com/martiano-da-tortona- ... -16-heroum

There follows the illustrious one of Thessalia, light of her native land, perpetual honour, Daphne, similar to whom no feminine splendour has since shone. In Daphne, nature brought together everything able to be seen, or rather to be thought, of both admirable and of divine excellence, in a maiden. And she was such a singular model of virgins, and acquired such strength in herself, that the starry vault defiled so great elegance of character; so that Phoebus himself, being kindled by fire, blazed up, bounding to her most ardently, in golden rays of desire. Neither constant and alluring songs before, nor the most magnificent offerings, were wanting. He came near, bringing with him the virtue, nobility, and beauty of an excellent lover. The beautiful maiden would have been worthy of this, complying with human custom; but she was immovable in heart to the brief pleasures set before, in the glory of perpetual modesty, however much this opinion is scarcely able, if at all, to be impressed upon the minds of miserable mortals: since for the attainment of immortality, in this short time they ought to learn, not to succumb to lust. So great was her concern for this, not to be enticed by any empty allurement, since the consorting of women and men is fleeting, but only the eagerness for her maidenhood to be protected. The bank was so adorned by the grassy waves of her father Peneus, that she thereby sensed no arms of venus. But when she was vehemently pursued by Phoebus, she implored and was granted to be changed into a blossoming Laurel. Then Apollo himself, having loved the most beautiful, in vain, poured out prayers. So he performed worthy songs to the maiden, so as by no means to be forgetful of his foremost love, nor to be without the prior flame. First he himself girded his hair, cithar, and quiver with laurel. And he established and decreed that distinction of caesars and poets, to be decorated by his fronds with the emblems of perpetual and always green fame. Described as dressed like a maiden, embracing her Laurel. And thence when by moist Peneus, from the river by the warmth of the sun every one of the types of trees should arise, and thrives, there is especially the Laurel singled out by Phoebus; since at no time is it deprived of the glory of its foliage; and close to the river Peneus are places especially abundant in Laurels.

In these days we discussed, if the tercet 4 of the Boiardo Tarocchi poem addressed Laura, the muse of Petrarca, or if it simply addressed Daphne which changed in a laurel tree.

Ragion fe’ Laura del fanciul perverso
Cupìdo trionfar, ché mai non torse
Occhio da la virtù né il piè in traverso.

Reason made Laura triumph over the perverted
Child Cupid, because she neither moved
Her eye from virtue nor ever put a foot wrong.

Translation of the poem: http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Boiardo,_Matteo_Maria

Discussion at: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1107#p17082
... and the following posts till the 3 page (each page with 10 contributions)


I captured another Daphne problem at this opportunity:

Daphne (/'dæfni?/; Greek: ??f??, meaning "laurel") is a minor figure in Greek mythology known as a naiad—a type of female nymph associated with fountains, wells, springs, streams, brooks and other bodies of freshwater. There are several versions of the myth, but the general narrative is that because of her beauty, Daphne attracted the attention and ardor of the god Apollo (Phoebus). Apollo pursued her and just before being overtaken, Daphne pleaded to her father, the rivergod Ladon, and Ge (Gaia) for help. So Ladon then transformed Daphne into a laurel tree. In Metamorphoses by Roman poet Ovid, she is identified as the daughter of the rivergod Pineios in Thessaly. At the Pythian Games which were held every four years in Delphi in honour of Apollo, a wreath of laurel gathered from the Vale of Tempe in Thessaly was given as a prize. According to Pausanias the reason for this "simply and solely because the prevailing tradition has it that Apollo fell in love with the daughter of Ladon (Daphne)".

Ladon (also a river god and also a river) as father of Daphne is part of an Arcadian variant to the Ovid story.
Pausanias made a description of Greece, in which he writes long passages about the river Ladon.
https://books.google.de/books?id=crfVRz ... on&f=false
Pausanias mentions a river Peneus at the Peloponnese (not that of Thessaly), and this a small tributary called Ladon in the time of Pausanias. However, this river Ladon is not the other more famous Ladon, which feeds the river Alpheus.


One should know, that there are 5 different rivers with the name Asopus, it seems to have been rather common in Greece to use the same name for different rivers. The river Peneus or Pinios (Peloponnese) has about 70 km, the river Peneus (Thessaly) I saw given with 184 or 216 km.

The "real" Ladon is a river of about 70 km, and it is (as it is stated) very beautiful, and somehow no wonder, that a nice nymph was proud to have as father Ladon. A modern comment (same source):


The Ladon rises on the western slope of the Aroania mountain, near the village Kastriá, Lefkasi municipal unit, Achaea. It flows south, receives its left tributary Aroanios, flows along Kleitoria and turns southwest near the Arcadian border. It flows through the artificial Ladon Lake, and turns south again near Dimitra. It flows into the Alfeios 3 km southeast of the village Tripotamia.
Rivers have cleansing effect in Greek mythology. When Poseidon assaulted Demeter, she washed away the insult in the waters of the River Ladon.

The comment to Demeter and Poseidon gives reason to think about. Poseidon raped his sister Demeter and the result were Arion (a horse) and Despoina (a woman with a horsehead, some suspect, that she was identical to Persephone; possibly there is a relation to Epona, a far spread celtic horse-goddess). Demeter didn't like that. For Daphne, connected to the same river Ladon it might mean, that she had experienced a negative male sexual approach and had so some reason to avoid Apollo (in the understanding of the responsible myth-creator).

http://www.liquisearch.com/demeter/myth ... d_poseidon
Demeter and Poseidon

Demeter and Poseidon's names are linked in the earliest scratched notes in Linear B found at Mycenaean Pylos, where they appear as and in the context of sacralized lot-casting.

In the myths of isolated Arcadia in southern Greece, Despoina (Persephone), is daughter of Demeter and Poseidon Hippios, Horse-Poseidon. These myths seem to be connected with the first Greek-speaking people who came from the north during the Bronze age. Poseidon represents the river spirit of the underworld and he appears as a horse as it often happens in northern-European folklore. He pursues the mare-Demeter and she bears one daughter who obviously originally had the form or the shape of a mare too. Demeter and Despoina were closely connected with springs and animals, related to Poseidon as a God of waters and especially with the mistress of the animals Artemis, the goddess of Nymphs.

Demeter as mare-goddess was pursued by Poseidon, and hid from him among the horses of King Onkios, but could not conceal her divinity. In the form of a stallion, Poseidon caught and covered her. Demeter was furious (erinys) at Poseidon's assault; in this furious form, she is known as Demeter Erinys. But she washed away her anger in the River Ladon, becoming Demeter Lousia, the "bathed Demeter". "In her alliance with Poseidon," Karl Kerenyi noted, "she was Earth, who bears plants and beasts, and could therefore assume the shape of an ear of grain or a mare." She bore a daughter Despoina (??sp???a: the "Mistress"), whose name should not be uttered outside the Arcadian Mysteries, and a horse named Arion, with a black mane and tail.

King Onkios, involved in this story, ...
In Greek mythology, Oncius or Oncus was a son of Apollo and a ruler over Oncium (Onkeion), a region of Arcadia adjacent to Thelpusa, as well as eponym of a city Oncae. He owned a herd of horses, in which Demeter tried to hide from Poseidon's advances, changing herself into a mare. Poseidon did mate with her in the shape of a stallion, which resulted in the birth of the fantastic horse Arion. Oncius kept Arion and later gave him away to Heracles as the latter was starting a military campaign against Elis.

... startled me.

  • Onkios was a Apollo son, so he had a natural relation to Delphi.
  • His place was located at the river Ladon.
  • Arion (the horse) became connected to Olympic and other games, possibly cause of the horse races
[*]Hercules used Arion in fights against the kingdom of Elis (after his 12 works) and after he conquered it, he founded the Olympic games.
[*]The latter had the consequence, that other games at other places were introduced.
[*]Hercules had before (5th work) cleaned the stables of Augeias.

An overview about the Panhellenic games:


An overview about the first 6 works of Hercules:

1. Slay the Nemean Lion.
2. Slay the nine-headed Lernaean Hydra.
3. Capture the Ceryneian Hind.
4. Capture the Erymanthian Boar.
5. Clean the Augean stables in a single day.
6. Slay the Stymphalian Birds.

An overview on the Peloponnese with the first 6th works of Hercules (with google maps help, it's clear, that all takes place in the upper part of the Peloponnese):


A composition of works and games:


For the horse Arion (Poseidon and Demeter's child) we have the following:
According to Pausanias, Heracles, waging war with the Eleans, acquired this horse from Oncus. The son of Zeus would have thus ridden upon Arion when he seized Elis. Thereafter, Heracles gave Arion to Adrastus; this is why Antimachus said of Arion: "Adrastus was the third lord who tamed him."

Adrastus was then active with the games of Nemea. He founded them.

A few words to Thelpusa:

https://books.google.de/books?id=j3gPAA ... sa&f=false


Thelpusa was ruined by war fights, possibly the reason, why the Daphne/cult searched for a new place for veneration and a new river father. But the original name was "Onkeion", perhaps the new name Thelpusa (first noted in 4th century BC) indicates another important change.

The riddle hasn't found its end.
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Re: Daphne riddle

Postby Adrian Goldwetter on 21 Jul 2016, 13:27

Huck - just in case you didn't notice:

You opened the same topic 2 times ...

1. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1108
2. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1109

... and both topics contain the same defective illustrations:

1. http://a-tarot.eu/p/2016/ap-07.jpg
2. http://a-tarot.eu/p/2016/ap-08.jpg

I hope that helped

Adrian Goldwetter

Re: Daphne riddle

Postby Huck on 21 Jul 2016, 13:54

thanks, the server promotes error these days, acting, as if it hadn't gotten the "submit"-signal, but has it done.

The project is "still in work", the pictures will follow.
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Re: Daphne riddle

Postby Huck on 22 Jul 2016, 09:57

There was always trouble with Theben. 16 kings are counted for the various mythological rulers.

  • Cadmus, Phoenician origin, founded the city, killed the dragon, married Harmonia, 1 son Polydoros, 4 daughters, Semele produced Dionysos by Zeus, Ino produced Melicertes by Athamas, Autonoe produced Aktaeon (killed in the Diana event as stag)
  • Pentheus, grandson of Cadmus by daughter Agave, Agave killed Pentheus in a Bacchus event
  • Polydorus, son of Cadmus, father of Labdacus, married daughter of Nycteus
  • Nycteus (regent for Labdacus), born from the dragon teeth, died in a war against king Epopeus of Sykion, who had robbed his daughter Antiope (Antiope got the twins Amphion and Zethos from Zeus)
  • Lycus (regent for Labdacus), brother of Nycteus, also born from dragon teeth
  • Labdacus, son of Polydorus, died young after he lost a war against king Pandion of Athen, had a son Laius
  • Lycus (now regent for Laius), treated Antiope bad, was killed by Amphion and Zetes
  • Amphion and Zethus (joint rulers), both built a city wall with 7 doors, Amphion was a great musician and married Niobe, Niobe and nearly all of her many children (7 sons, 7 daughters), other number solutions are known) were killed by Apollo and Artemis, Zethon married Thebe (daughter of Merope by river Asopos at the Peloponnese, sister of Daphne and daughter of Ladon) ...

    ... according another version Asopos and Merope had 20 daughters and 2 sons (which makes together 22)

    ... and Zethos had a son of Thebe and the city of Theben got the name Theben cause of Thebe (there are competing versions ... according one a wife named Aedon killed her own son Itylos, when she attempted to kill Amphion's oldest son). Zethos killed himself after the loss of his son, Amphion lost his life, when he attacked a temple of Apollo in revenge.
  • Laius, very young, had escaped to the court of Pelops at Pisa on the Peloponnese. Pelops was connected to horse-chariot racing before, cause he had king Oenomaus beaten in a chariot race and so he won the hand of Hippodamia (hippo- means horse), from whom he got many children. Pelops did win with the help of Myrtilus (a son of Hermes), the charioteer of Oenomaus, but didn't pay him (Myrtilus wanted Hippodamia) and threw him from a cliff in the ocean. Myrtylus cursed Pelops and this caused a lot of cruel stories.

    The Olympic Games
    After his victory, Pelops organized chariot races as thanksgiving to the gods and as funeral games in honor of King Oinomaos, in order to be purified of his death. It was from this funeral race held at Olympia that the beginnings of the Games were inspired. Pelops became a great king, a local hero, and gave his name to the Peloponnese.

    One of cruel stories was, that Laius abducted and raped Chrysippus, a son of Pelops outside of marriage. Laius taught Chrysippus chariot-racing, and promised Chrysippus, that he could participate at the games of Nemea. Laius became king at Theben and married Iocaste. A son Oedipus got a bad oracle and was left in the wilderness in the expectation of death, but he survived.
  • Oedipus: King Polybus of Korinth/Sikyon raised Oedipus as his adopted son. Oedipus got the oracle, that he would kill his father and Oedipus thought, that this would mean Polybus, so Oedipus avoided to go back home, and went to Theben instead. He killed Laius, when Laius drove on a chariot, but Oedipus didn't know, that this was his father. He solved the riddle of the Sphinx and married his mother Iokaste, from which he got 2 sons (Eteocles & Polynices) and (Antigone and Ismene). Finally the true background became obvious and Oedipus retired. "Oedipus desired to stay in Thebes but was expelled by Creon."
  • Creon (regent for Eteocles & Polynices), brother of Iocaste ... maybe this overview helps:
  • Eteocles & Polynices ...
    "... argued over the throne, but Eteocles gained the support of the Thebans and expelled Polynices, who went to Oedipus to ask for his blessing to retake the city, but instead was cursed to die by his brother's hand."
    Or "In Hellanicus's account, Eteocles offers his brother his choice of either the rule of the city or a share of the property. In Pherecydes, however, Eteocles expels Polynices by force, and keeps the rule of Thebes and the inheritance. The Bibliotheca and Diodorus state that the brothers agree to divide the kingship between them, switching each year. Eteocles, however, was allotted the first year, and refused to surrender the crown."

    Polynikes appeared in Argos ... and horse Arion arrives our theme (again): Adrastus, who had gotten Arion, the immortal horse, from Hercules, had received a kingdom in Sikyon first and later also in Argos.

    During a feud between the most powerful houses in Argos, Talaus was slain by Amphiaraus, and Adrastus being expelled from his dominions fled to Polybus, then king of Sicyon. When Polybus [the king, who took the lost child Oidipus as a son] died without heirs, Adrastus succeeded him on the throne of Sicyon, and during his reign he is said to have instituted the Nemean Games.

    Seven against Thebes

    Afterwards, however, Adrastus became reconciled to Amphiaraus, gave him his sister Eriphyle in marriage, and returned to his kingdom of Argos upon the swift immortal horse Arion, a gift of Heracles. During the time he reigned there it happened that Tydeus of Calydon and Polynices of Thebes, both fugitives from their native countries, met at Argos near the palace of Adrastus, and came to words and from words to blows. On hearing the noise, Adrastus hastened to them and separated the combatants, in whom he immediately recognised the two men that had been promised to him by an oracle as the future husbands of two of his daughters, for one bore on his shield the figure of a boar, and the other that of a lion, and the oracle was that one of his daughters was to marry a boar and the other a lion. Adrastus, therefore, gave his daughter Deipyle to Tydeus, and Argeia to Polynices, and at the same time promised to lead each of these princes back to his own country. Adrastus now prepared for war against Thebes, although Amphiaraus foretold that all who should engage in it should perish, with the exception of Adrastus.

    Thus arose the celebrated war of the Seven against Thebes, in which Adrastus was joined by six other heroes, Polynices, Tydeus, Amphiaraus, Capaneus, Hippomedon, and Parthenopaeus. Instead of Tydeus and Polynices other legends mention Eteoclos and Mecisteus. This war ended as unfortunately as Amphiaraus had predicted, and Adrastus alone was saved by the swiftness of his horse Arion.

    After the battle, Creon, king of Thebes, ordered that none of the fallen enemies were to be given funeral rites. Against his order, Antigone buried Polynices and was put to death, but Adrastus escaped to Athens to petition Theseus, the city's king, to attack Thebes and force the return of the bodies of the remaining five. Theseus initially refused but was convinced by his mother, Aethra, who had been beseeched by the mothers of the fallen, to put the matter to a vote of the citizens. The Athenians marched on Thebes and conquered the city but inflicted no additional damage, taking only what they came for, the five bodies. They were laid upon a funeral pyre and Adrastus eulogized each.

  • Creon (regent for Laodamas)
  • Laodamas
    "son of Eteocles, inherited Thebes from his father. In one version of the myth (different from the one recounted in Sophocles' Antigone), he was responsible for the deaths of his aunts Antigone and Ismene, whom he prosecuted for having buried Polynices. They sought refuge in the temple of Hera, but Laodamas set fire to it and thus killed them. During the battle of the Epigoni, he was killed by Alcmaeon after he killed Aegialeus. Other sources state that he survived and fled to the Encheleans in Illyria, and subsequently led an expedition to Thessaly."
  • Thersander, son of Polynikes
    "In Homer's Iliad, Thersander was one of the Epigoni, who attacked the city of Thebes in retaliation for the deaths of their fathers, the Seven Against Thebes, who had attempted the same thing. He was the son of Polynices and Argea.
    Thersander may have bribed Eriphyle with the robe of Harmonia so that she sent her son, Alcmaeon, to fight with him. His father did the same with Harmonia's necklace to convince her to send her husband with the original attackers. The attack of the Epigoni was successful, and Thersander became the king of Thebes.[1] Thersander intended to fight for the Greeks during the Trojan War, but was killed by Telephus before the war began, while the Greeks had mistakenly stopped in Mysia. He was succeeded by his son Tisamenus, whose mother was Demonassa.
    Pindar refers to Thersander as gaining honor after Polynices' death and preserving the house of Adrastus for later generations."
  • Peneleos (regent for Tisamenus)
  • Tisamenus
  • Autesion
  • Damasichthon
  • Ptolemy
  • Xanthos

Well, I made red text in this list to points, about which I'll argue later. Actually the interest is still in Daphne, and in her father Ladon and in the Apollo-city at the Ladon and the horse Arion, which was born there and chariot-racing at panhellenic games.
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Re: Daphne riddle

Postby Huck on 23 Jul 2016, 10:19


From the book ...
https://books.google.de/books?id=j3gPAA ... navlinks_s
... of 1873 I captured the following description of Thelpusa:



A village Vanena was found here:
http://www.greece.com/destinations/Pelo ... anena.html
The page speaks of 4 inhabitants today. The location has the value 200 meters above sea level.

I located the given map at the Google tool:
https://www.google.de/maps/dir/37.71682 ... a=!3m1!1e3



Ladon, the river god

Text captured from http://www.theoi.com/Potamos/PotamosLadon.html , the red underlines are added by myself:


My comments:

  • Ladon is variously mentioned as father of Daphne, in contrast to the solution of Ovid, who used another river god and this river is relative far in the north in Thessaly, not on the Peloponnese.
  • The 22 children of Metope, Ladon's daughter, are noted.
  • Thelpusa is also called a daughter of Ladon.
  • The note to Ladon by Ovid refers to ...
    In classical mythology, Syrinx /ˈsɪrɪŋks/ (Greek Σύριγξ) was a nymph and a follower of Artemis, known for her chastity. Pursued by the amorous Greek god Pan, she ran to a river's edge and asked for assistance from the river nymphs. In answer, she was transformed into hollow water reeds that made a haunting sound when the god's frustrated breath blew across them. Pan cut the reeds to fashion the first set of pan pipes, which were thenceforth known as syrinx. The word syringe was derived from this word.

    ... more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrinx


The next text is from Roscher's
Ausführliche Lexikon der griechischen und römischen Mythologie
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausf%C3%B ... Mythologie
... which is a very expanded work made at the end of 19th century and the begin of 20th by very competent German scholars. I was very happy, when I found it online, yesterday:
However, it is very difficult to read sometimes, even if you're born with German language.


I translate only the green and blue passages, as these include new information.

  • "Die Daphne erzeugte er (Ladon) mit der Erde" means that Ladon paired with "Earth" and the result was Daphne. It's not clear, who is earth now in this mythology snippet: Gaia, Rhea and Demeter might be possible candidates, which would mean, that Ladon had either a rank between Uranos or Pontos (for the solution "Gaia" or a rank between Zeus and Kronos (for the solution Rhea) or a rank like Poseidon (for the solution Demeter). The last of these stories (Ladon = Poseidon / Demeter) looks probable, as the case, which happened in Thelpusa near the river Ladon, involved Demeter and Poseidon. I can't solve riddle of the references (at least for the moment; this is the case with most references).

  • "Vater der Nymphe Thelpusa" means Ladon is the father of the nymph Thelpusa (we already had that).

  • "Großvater des Euandros" is a big story, it means, that Ladon was the grandfather of Euandros, an Arcardian hero. The father of this was Hermes (between others) ... Roscher (again) to Euandros:


    "Euandros: an Arcadian, who led a Pelasgian colony from Pallantion in Arcadia to Italy and who founded the first foreign settlement on the place of the later Rome on the Palatin ...
    As father of Euandros usually Hermes is given, as mother an Arcadian nymph, capable of truthsaying, daughter of Ladon, and her name is given as Carmenta, Themis, Nikostrate or Tyburtis ...
    An alternative genealogy calls him son of Echeos of Tegea and of Timandra, daughter of Tyndareos and Leda.



    And we have a further of Ladon daughter, joining Daphne, which opened the series of Trionfi decks, Thelpusa (perhaps just a lost settlement, birthplace of a speaking horse Arion), Merope and her 14 or 22 children and now a sybil Carmenta-Themis-Nicostrate-Tyburtis and mother of culture-hero, who transported even alphabets. Isn't that a strange composition in a Tarot history forum?

  • "Über den Zusammenhang dieses Flusses mit dem Drachen Ladon, siehe ..." means that there is some literature about between the river god Ladon and the dragon Ladon, as it appears in the 10th work of Hercules in the Atleas-scene at the garden of the Hesperides. Hercules shoots the dragon.
    Well, that's the question, which interests me.
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Re: Daphne riddle

Postby Huck on 24 Jul 2016, 10:00

River Ladon (still)

A German travel report of the year 1822 ..
https://books.google.de/books?id=X5ZbAA ... on&f=false
... speaks of the start of the river Ladon, which is reported to be there already a strong river ("reißender Fluß"), meaning, that the water runs under the surface a longer distance.

https://books.google.de/books?id=V2M6AA ... on&f=false

The author gives some locations, but I was not able to verify this observation. Google maps stays weak in this question. A similar analysis (as the travel report) gives the report (1852) at ..
https://books.google.de/books?id=jrtCAA ... 22&f=false
... which gives also the interesting information, that the Ladon has (or had) more water than the Alpheus (nonetheless its seen as the tributary river).

In mythology texts I saw, that the wife of the river god Ladon is given as Stymphalis, indicating a context (by the underground streams) from the lake at the city of Stymphfalia to the river Ladon ..
https://www.google.de/maps/place/Lake+S ... 1111?hl=en
... and Stmphalia was the place of the 6th work of Hercules against dangerous birds at the lake.
The lake itself was dangerous in old times, cause the underground streams of water, which emptied the water to rivers, occasionally were blocked, and the result were water catastrophes around the lake.

Enough of the river.

Ladon the Dragon

The source http://www.theoi.com/Ther/DrakonHesperios.html is disappointing, as the terminus "Ladon" is only used in this source:

Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 4. 1390 ff (trans. Rieu) (Greek epic C3rd B.C.) :
"They [the Argonauts] found the sacred plot where, till the day before, the serpent Ladon, a son of the Libyan soil, had kept watch over the golden apples in the Garden of Atlas, while close at hand and busy at their tasks the Hesperides sang their lovely song. But now the snake, struck down by Herakles, lay by the trunk of the apple-tree. Only the tip of his tail was still twitching; from the head down, his dark spine showed not a sign of life. His blood had been poisoned by arrows steeped in the gall of the Lernaian Hydra, and flies perished in the festering wounds . . .
[The Hesperis Aigle (Hesperid Aegle) addresses the Argonauts :] ‘There was a man here yesterday, an evil man, who killed the watching snake, stole our golden apples, and is gone. To us he brought unspeakable sorrow . . . [he carried] the bow and arrows with which he shot our monster here.’"

Otherwise it is spoken of a "dracon" or the "Dracon Hisperios", referring to the Hesperides at the tree of the golden apples, which are the commission of Hercules (the 10th work)

Roscher is much better ...


... cause Roscher leads to ...

Die ursprüngliche Bedeutung des Ares
Heinr. W. Stoll
Lanz, 1855 - 50 pages
https://books.google.de/books?id=V2M6AA ... navlinks_s

... and this text of Stoll I could identify and it is wonderful and confirms my own suspicions to Ladon to a big part.

Stoll, page 4-7




In a later context (page 39)



I need some time to study it myself. Well, for the moment the short information, that there was a 3rd river Ladon (beside the big Ladon at the Peloponnese and the smaller Ladon also at the Peloponnese, but feeding the Pelopponese Peneios instead the Alpheios) and this 3rd Ladon was very close to the place, where the founder of Theben Kadmos killed his dragon.

One has to remember, that Apollo killed the dragon Pythia or Delphine and founded Delphi as a major place for oracles. Theben - where Kadmos killed his dragon - became the living place of the truth-saying Teiresias. Thelpusa at the river Ladon also had its truth-saying function with the Ladon daughter, which went to Italy with her son Euander, and with the Apollo-son Onkios. In Theben Kadmos manifested an Athena-Onka temple close to the dragon place. Onka-Onkios.
And the dragon in the Iason-Argonautica event far away in Kolchis shall have come also from Theben.

And there is "Lotan", similar to "Ladon" ... not observed by Stoll ... and Kadmus came himself from Phoenicia:

Lotan is brought together with "Leviathan". It seems, that a Phoenician dragon name invaded with Kadmus the Greek river names.
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Re: Daphne riddle

Postby Adrian Goldwetter on 24 Jul 2016, 10:30

(Meanwhile I composed the reply below you did post an additional piece of your research that could very well answer my query - though I have no time to read it now. I'll read later - and if this reply proves solved I'll delete this post:)

Could you please clarify the question that interests you for me Huck?

"Über den Zusammenhang dieses Flusses mit dem Drachen Ladon, siehe ..." means that there is some literature about between the river god Ladon and the dragon Ladon, as it appears in the 10th work of Hercules in the Atleas-scene at the garden of the Hesperides. Hercules shoots the dragon.

Well, that's the question, which interests me.

I got from your above studies here that you are interested in the genealogy of heroes & heroines & gods (or personified forces of nature - e. g. the river/dragon Ladon? ).
Is that correct?

If your question IS about genealogy in a "fixed" sense it could probably not be answered in a proper way because ...

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stammbaum_ der_ griechischen_Götter_und_Helden

(Please copy > paste the link!)

Ein mythologisch fester Stammbaum der griechischen Götter und Helden besteht nicht und bestand nie.

[A mythological fixed genealogy of the Greek gods and heroes does not exist and it never existed]

Unfortunately the English version of that Wikipedia page is not sufficient.

But here is an illustration - compiled from a LOT of sources - from that same article that illustrates the situation quite nicely ...


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ed.svg.png


For better reading results the original link above might be clicked if you do not want to save it.

Adrian Goldwetter

Re: Daphne riddle

Postby Huck on 24 Jul 2016, 17:43

Adrian Goldwetter wrote:
"Über den Zusammenhang dieses Flusses mit dem Drachen Ladon, siehe ..." means that there is some literature about between the river god Ladon and the dragon Ladon, as it appears in the 10th work of Hercules in the Atleas-scene at the garden of the Hesperides. Hercules shoots the dragon.

Well, that's the question, which interests me.

I got from your above studies here that you are interested in the genealogy of heroes & heroines & gods (or personified forces of nature - e. g. the river/dragon Ladon? ).
Is that correct?

As the title says, I'm interested in the Daphne riddle. Ovid has it, that Daphne was the daughter of the river Peneus in Thessaly. Others say, that Ladon was the father. So there's a contradiction.

I persecute (for the moment) the Ladon version. This leads to the question, if Ladon the river god has some connection to Ladon the dragon, as it appears in the 10th work of Hercules.
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Re: Daphne riddle

Postby Adrian Goldwetter on 24 Jul 2016, 18:46

Thanks for the clarification Huck.
So I misunderstood what I did read.
Since I had no time yet to read through your new post above I'll come back later for that.

Adrian Goldwetter

Re: Daphne riddle

Postby Huck on 25 Jul 2016, 12:57

Some ideas come late. So let the Stoll information sleep a little bit.

River god Ladon (again)

In Greek mythology, Styx (/stɪks/; Ancient Greek: Στύξ [stýkʰs])[citation needed] is a deity and a river that forms the boundary between Earth and the Underworld (the domain often called Hades, which also is the name of its ruler). The rivers Styx, Phlegethon, Acheron, Lethe, and Cocytus all converge at the center of the underworld on a great marsh, which sometimes is also called the Styx. According to Herodotus, the river Styx originates near Feneos.[1]

I don't know much about these rivers Phlegethon, Acheron, Lethe, and Cocytus, they never got my attention. Perhaps I should look out for them later.
A great marsh (Styx) in the center of the other 4 rivers would make sense.
The river Styx originates near Feneos, so says Herodot (that was, what I searched). Somehow this makes sense: the Ladon is assumed to be also fed by water from the Pheneos (= Feneos).

Well, Ladon's wife is called "Stymphalis" and this starts like Sty-x.
Styx married Pallas, one of the 3 sons of Krios, a Titan and son of Uranos (heaven) and Gaia (earth). Krios had married Eurybia, a daughter of Pontus (ocean) and Gaia (earth). This was a single connection between the both different family trees, as most male Titans married a direct sister and the remaining Titan Iapetos married "Asia", so something like "everything which comes from the East".

The question for the place, where Hades abducted Persephone, has many answers, but the highest local probability has the Arcadian Feneos (or Pheneus). The other places are not at the Peloponnese.

(based on the map https://www.google.de/maps/place/Feneos ... 22.3247652 )

I found this map of the Peloponnese rivers. According this the river Ladonas reaches far south and runs through the city Vytinia (nowadays Vitina).

I searched for the river at google maps and couldn't locate it. I found a touristic picture to Vitina ...


... so possibly a river, which occasionally disappears.

I found 3 pictures called "river Ladon spring", and these give the impression, as if it is the place, that the German of 19th century saw, and this should be around the place, where I arranged on the map "start of river Ladon":
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nizz7/534 ... otostream/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/nizz7/534 ... otostream/

From all this one may conclude, that "somehow" the river Ladon was a "hidden husband" to Sty-x (= Stymphalis), somehow in the mask of Pallas, son of the Titan Krios.

Ladon as Ladon has 4 daughters:
[list=][*]Daphne, our riddle
[*]Merope with her 14 or 22 children
[*]Thelpusa as the river, which runs in the city Thelpusa into the Ladon
[*]Carmenta-Themis-Nicostrate-Tyburtis, a woman with 4 names, a sybil composition, mother by god Hermes to Euandros, a "good-man", who was so friendly to found the big Rome ... not yet, but nearly. At the hill Palatin, the name "Palatin" cause he came from Pallation, nowadays Pallatio, a small location in Arcadia. Well, a grandson of Pallos=Ladon. [/list]

A triumphal arch in Pallatio:


A triumphal arch at Palatine hill:

The normal Titan-son Pallas had also 4 children from Styx: one is well known, that's Nike, mother of the Trionfi cards, cause she means "triumph" or "victory", and the others are less known, Zelos (meaning dedication, emulation, eager rivalry, envy, jealousy, and zeal), Kratos (meaning strength, might, power and sovereign rule) and Bia (female as Nike, meaning force, power, might, bodily strength and compulsion).
All are winged like "Fame" on the Minchiate.

Styx had naturally the same sons and daughters, but also 4 rivers around her, which somehow remembers the 4 rivers of paradise: "Genesis 2:10–14 lists four rivers in association with the garden of Eden: Pishon, Gihon, the Tigris, and the Euphrates".

Well, there is a viper in paradise and also a tree with apples, as there is a viper in the garden of the Hesperides and also a tree with apples, and the viper in the latter case has a name, and the name is: Ladon, rather similar to "Lôtān, Litan, or Litānu (Ugaritic: Ltn, lit. "Coiled") was a sea monster in Canaanite mythology, similar to as Leviathan in Hebrew mythology."

It's time to look at the Pelasgian myth of world creation:

Eurynome was alone ... she danced on the water, and the dance created some wind, and the viper Ophion came from it. Together they produced a little bit the world, as we know it, finally Eurynome had enough of Ophion and kicked him, Ophion lost a few teeth (important detail) and had to live in dark caves since then.
That's naturally only a rough version. Ranke-Graves gives it more space. Ranke-Graves' opinion to it is criticized ...

Graves's retellings have been widely praised as imaginative and poetic, but the scholarship behind his hypotheses and conclusions is sometimes criticised as idiosyncratic and untenable.[4]

Ted Hughes and other poets have found the system of The White Goddess congenial; The Greek Myths contains about a quarter of that system, and does not include the method of composing poems.[5]

The Greek Myths has been heavily criticised both during and after the lifetime of the author. Critics have deprecated Graves's personal interpretations, which are, in the words of one of them, "either the greatest single contribution that has ever been made to the interpretation of Greek myth or else a farrago of cranky nonsense; I fear that it would be impossible to find any classical scholar who would agree with the former diagnosis". Graves's etymologies have been questioned, and his largely intuitive division between "true myth" and other sorts of story has been viewed as arbitrary, taking myths out of the context in which we now find them. The basic assumption that explaining mythology requires any "general hypothesis", whether Graves's or some other, has also been disputed.[6] The work was called a compendium of misinterpretations.[7] Robin Hard called it "comprehensive and attractively written," but added that "the interpretive notes are of value only as a guide to the author's personal mythology".[8] Michael W. Pharand, quoting some of the earlier criticisms, rebutted them: "Graves's theories and conclusions, outlandish as they seemed to his contemporaries (or may appear to us), were the result of careful observation."[9]

H. J. Rose, agreeing with several of the above critics, questions the scholarship of the retellings. Graves presents The Greek Myths as an updating of William Smith's Dictionary of Greek and Roman Biography and Mythology (originally published 1844) and calls it still "the standard work in English", never brought up to date: Rose is dismayed to find no sign that Graves had heard of the Oxford Classical Dictionary or any of the "various compendia of mythology, written in, or translated into, our tongue since 1844". Rose finds many omissions and some clear errors, most seriously Graves's ascribing to Sophocles the argument of his Ajax (Graves §168.4); this evaluation has been repeated by other critics since.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greek ... ation_myth
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