Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

#41
Hi Huck.

Yes I thought of the PMB "Homeless Man" too.
This man has a special disadvantage in comparison to the A-2-chess-man and the "Giotto-Stoltezza".
He has a "goiter" what can lead to serious special conditions.

The "C-2-chess-man I would more likely address as the "Innkeeper" (as in owner) because "C" shows how the "baton" of Le BATELEUR is used as a "key" to Le MONDE's secret (especially in the M/G 1930 aTdM)
The Innkeeper should only have ONE key as in your 1st and 2nd pic.
Maybe the 2 keys (as) in your second picture brought the 2 batons to some Le(s) MONDE(s) in some TdMs about. With 2 of them there is no chance to find the "key position".

Also the Innkeeper carries something with an oval opening.
Or in the last picture you can see the oval wine barrel through the open tavern door.

(The 2nd Innkeeper with the "too many keys" seems to carry a "spittoon" - what is very interesting when know about early "creation(s) of man".)

The tavern is a place where people meet and have social interaction.
Of EVERY kind. The Owner has to keep them in check. It's his business.
He opens the tavern and closes after them and stays there the whole day.

((In early myths (on the Phoenician side - but only if you REALLY follow through the whole "way") you will also find an Innkeeper - but a woman. A bit unconventional in her tastes and social contacts and of somewhat questionable morals. IF you look at her with mortal eyes.))

The "Garland" of Le MONDE is in oval shape too and "C" shows how the "Card-People" gather there in oval form.

AFTER "The OUROBOROS" - ((himself originally of circular or oval form - but here as a rectangle because the cards are rectangular and I (Le BATELEUR) and II (La PAPESSE) only help to "form" the body of the "serpent" in the beginning)) has eaten and digested for his movement and new formation III - IIII and V...

(Here it helps to know about "Sophia" in (early) gnostic texts and to whom she gave birth and why. But this is also only another skin ( > as in onion) of knowledge. A FRINGE theme.)

...he gets killed by a baby (Apollon I assume and "Python" who is a "persona" for the Ouroboros like all snaky monsters in folktale.)

(Speaking of snakes and "dolphins" - did you know that "Delphyne" was a nickname for the "Python" ( > aka Ouroboros?)

The dead Ouroboros ( > Python) - (all cards except I - II - III - IIII - V) is taken away in a special order and the cards that stay (III - IIII -V) can be understood as the bones of Python that formed the "Tripod" on which the "Priestess" (II) interprets the SCRIPTURE ((as in HOLY book > word of (a) God)) of Apollon (I).

(I = Apollon on this level only and for all other here mentioned identities of the cards goes the same!).

Afterwards the "New World" is born through the "Miracle Of The Dice" and formed in the way the Timaios describes it when the Ouroboros is transformed.
This becomes visible only after "The GODDESS" has taken her place between the crenelation of 4 on the BIG RESURRECTED "La MAISON DIEV".

(Assuming here that the Timaios is only an editing of an originally Pythagorean work ( > Cicero) widens the cultural range immensely (when you know where Pythagoras did study) and the time range of the original cultural source profoundly.)

The (in a special defined way) oval bound sliced Ouroboros can also be perceived as a boat (or tavern) full of 20 people who make noise and are unruly and anger the owner and make him take action (as in strict moral advice for them to not endanger themselves or others).

Here the strong for hire "Homeless Man" can come in handy as a "partner" for the "owner".
He could act like a "pillar" or a "mast" for the whole "drunken ((with the PRESENCE of (a) God)) community".
Because HE follows only the "orders" of the "owner".

Le BATELEUR "owns" his "balls" so to say - just like Jean Noblet portrays it so distinctly!

About the "elephant" that became "a rook" and it's Italian appearance:
They become all ONE when you follow the "Phoenician" trail across the alps.
But that was not their first visit to Italian borders.
They gave much soil to the later roman plants.

In the wake of the 20th century there were still traces of "Phoenician" worship amongst "witches" that did "divination" with Tarot cards in Italy.
Foremost the God "Nebo" (It's such a drag with vocals in some languages!). > You may remember our PM conversation about the Sola Busca when I mentioned that on the NABUCHODENASOR card XXI the patron God of Nebuchadnezzar II is portrayed for several reasons and NOT the king. This is ONE more reason why.)

>> The Rook is assumed to have some relation to Fame-World <<

Interesting! That's what I was talking about above in the paragraph about the "New World".



>> The king knight is assumed as the successful triumphator on a chariot <<

On a later level - after the cards are one by one shifted around for some hours - 3 of them will ride in the chariot.
They are taken away from "the world" (Merkaba > the devoted "friend" enters through acts & "mercy" the presence of "The Highest Builder In The World" with Metatron's help: only very short and customized for this special purpose of explanation!!) for some time (levels) and reside in a place called "Limbo" by some.

You can NOT see them - BUT they are still THERE.

Now there is more "room" on the board and other stories can be told.
"The REVERSED MAN" knows about them through the "snags" on his gallows but he can only remember while he dances between the "sun" and the "moon".

The XX (the trumpet with the golden cross) alarms II that she must get ready to fulfill the scripture and proclaim "The Word" to set in motion the new (world's) creation.

This is all totally practical and summarized from the scribd text and that what follows.



>> What in the suspected Tarot chess was really done is naturally a riddle. In one case it is suspected, that the king bishop became the Father Time, and on the negative female Queen-side bishop the Traitor. The king knight is assumed as the successful triumphator on a chariot, and on the Queen side the negative Death on horse. The Rook is assumed to have some relation to Fame-World on one side, and on the other the Last Judgment, the highest cards and the strongest figures in old chess (before the queen was promoted) <<

It does not work like that as you may get from the above. You should get first get comfortable with the "Liber Mundi" thread on "Aeclectic".

16 personas in Tarot (on the 1st level).
8 officers with their 8 special pawns in chess (as I understand it so far > A-2 is connected with the right wing "tower" and C-2 with the right wing "bishop" and so demonstrating the specific abilities of the concerned "officers" in an extended manner - correct? Please correct me if I didn't get it!)
8 (16) against 8 (16) in chess.
8 complement 8 in Tarot.

8 pairs in Tarot on the points of an 8 pointed "Star"
The 8 "halfs" of each pair do not go against the other 8 "halfs" in a competition.
They "discover" each-other in every meaning of this word.
And the next "condition" that every half experiences is inevitable and dependent on personal choice and reflection - and so the 16 become 18.

The level of 18.
Nothing like that in chess.

On the 18-level you will find the so-called "replacement cards" (PMB) grouped very neatly into 3 pairs and the card that is used as a 17th card and as an add on to the left half of the broken pair Sun/World (Sun < 17) stays No 17 in the TdMs.
The 18th card that is used as an add on to to angels on the "world" (18 > World) stays No 18 in the TdMs.

But the appearance of both cards changes VERY much from PMB to Tarot de Marseille!

And this goes on until on a level after some more levels all 22 are united again in the next world that was the foundation for the creation in the beginning because "The WORD" of creation must be spoken and spelled out with definite "letters" in a certain order.

And after that the orchard with its trees comes into sight.

A wonderful and Illustration for that is:
"Die kabbalistische Lehrtafel in der evangelischen Dreifaltigkeitskirche im Stadtteil Bad Teinach der Stadt Bad Teinach-Zavelstein" der Prinzessin Antonia von Württemberg.

There are great sites out there with BIG JPGs of ALL the tablets.
You should look through the Christian bias.
And know WHO the spiritual teacher of the princess was.
And take him more seriously.

The Hebrew bias should naturally last a bit longer.
But they CAME from somewhere.
That was what the Freemasons originally came for but forgot about.



>> What interests me first: It's well known, that there was not only one Tarot card sequence, but a lof of variants. Does Charlatan mention this condition, or does he just postulate, that his row is just the true and real one? It's just a question, if he knows about these many other rows. <<

If you really REALLY want to know that you should REALLY read my PDF.

Thanx a lot.
That was interesting.

Adrian



PS: Huck if you should feel inclined to reply to this quick write up (because I do not have much time right now I did it all out of the top of my head and so without pics!) please make sure that you address EVERY topic (even any new ones) herein so that I can get the info over completely.
For other INTERESTED readers too!
It's complicated enough - so let's make it leastways readable.

I tried to use words that are searchable.
If you should get stuck please let me know.
I'd be happy to help out and follow up with links or such.
And it seems that "Tarot Chess" is really YOUR thing (or not?) apart from the Enochian bogus.
So PLEASE be precise!

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

#42
Adrian Goldwetter wrote: The Innkeeper should only have ONE key as in your 1st and 2nd pic.
Maybe the 2 keys (as) in your second picture brought the 2 batons to some Le(s) MONDE(s) in some TdMs about. With 2 of them there is no chance to find the "key position".

Also the Innkeeper carries something with an oval opening.
Or in the last picture you can see the oval wine barrel through the open tavern door.

(The 2nd Innkeeper with the "too many keys" seems to carry a "spittoon" - what is very interesting when know about early "creation(s) of man".)

The tavern is a place where people meet and have social interaction.
Of EVERY kind. The Owner has to keep them in check. It's his business.
He opens the tavern and closes after them and stays there the whole day.
Cessolis opened a "13 figures interpretation" ... he didn't distinguish 2 knights, 2 advisors and 2 rooks. He possibly had no pictures. The pictures followed in the later tradition of the translations and interpretations (as far we know this). Those, which I know (I'm sure, that I don't know all), don't show very much variation, it's not comparable to the greater changes in the Tarot motif development. So there's more constancy.

The chess interpretation of Evrart de Conti 1398 ("Eschecs amoureux", a sort of encyclopedia with chess connections with very much text written in old French; a modern edition reports it with about 1000 pages in small modern letters) used 16 gods and 32 figures in the style of the "Roman de la rose".
I got this text in a library, but couldn't detect a clear relation between 16 gods and 16 chess figures (but maybe, that it's inside; I hadn't much time with the book and my French is limited). The connection from 32 "French" figures to the 32 figures on the chess board is clearly given.
In later editions (since the 1460s) the 16 gods are presented as pictures. I know of three picture versions, but don't know all pictures. This is complete ...

http://classes.bnf.fr/echecs/feuille/amour/index.htm

... , 24 pictures, from which the first 4 (1-4) and the last 4 (21-24) are about the frame story of the text, and 5-20 present the 16 gods. The last picture ...

Image


... shows the start position of the game, which is not the usual chess start, but a "short assize" version.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_assize

In the frame story the author enters a garden and ends in a chess game with a lady, which he quickly loses.

The interesting part of the story - from playing card perspective - is the use of 16 gods. 16 gods were used in the Michelino deck, commissioned by Filippo Maria Visconti at a time between 1418-1425.
http://trionfi.com/0/b/

The text of Conti became part of a public scandal (1402) at the court of Valentina Visconti (half sister of Filippo Maria Visconti) by the engagement of the poetress Christine de Pizan, who considered, that the Roman de la Rose manifested a negative view on the social role of women.

Conti had based his text on an earlier anonymous poem (1370).
One should see clearly, that the arrangement of the Conti system was much more complex than that, what followed later as Tarot cards.

The court of Filippo Maria Visconti got another impact by Greek gods, when the council in Constance was closed, and the papal delegation returned to Italy and took as a first station the court of Milan. Poggio (who accompanied the delegation) had detected the Manilius poem in a German cloister, written c. 20 BC in the time of Tiberius. Manilius had connected 12 Olympian gods to 12 zodiac signs, and with that the text contradicted a lot of other astrological ideas, which were active in this time. Filippo Maria Visconti had been very active in the theme astrology and collected astrologers at his court. Martiano da Tortona, who wrote an accompanying text book to the card deck of 1418-25, had been one of them.

The card deck had 16 gods, but it were only in parts the 16 gods of Conti. Filippo Maria had also 12 Olympian gods (1-12) like the Manilius system, but he exchanged Vulcanus/Hephaistos with Bacchus/Dionysus. To this he added as 13th Hercules and 14 Aiolus and 15 Daphne and 16 Amor.

The Manilius astrology was later used as picture program for the frescoes in Palazzo Schiffanoia (since 1469).

Chess in context to Greek/Roman gods were later used in a Spanish work (c. 1470) and by Marco Girolama Vida ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Girolamo_Vida
... so the general idea of a connection between chess and gods was running through 15th century. However, it was not a fixed system like the Cessolis variant or the later Tarot system, but individual poets attempted in their own interests new interpretations.
We cannot rely on the condition, that we would have a realistic chance to hear of all the chess/gods experiments, that possibly had taken place in this period. Courts with knights favored chess, and Greek/Roman gods became popular again in 14th/15th century, just in the same time ... it was natural to bring them together in creative experiments.

Even when old texts are often and deeply studied by scholars, it isn't sure, that an influence of chess on the text would be really seen. So I personally detected, that Chaucers frame story to the Canterbury Tales is rather surely infected by the Chess virus (I couldn't find any opinion, which said the same). In the frame story it's told, that 29 travellers collected at a pub, but through various twistings it suddenly are 32 figures. If one analyses the data, the collection looks finally as "made with Cessolis inspiration" and the better class of country nobility fights against the professions of the cities.
The Canterbury Tales weren't finished, only the introduction tells the story.

For the Trionfi cards we have, that with some security Petrarca's poem "Trionfi" played a larger role.
The poem presents 6 allegories, Love-Chastity-Death-Fame-Time-Eternity, in one or another way all 6 motifs appear later in Trionfi/Tarot.

6 kind of figures are in chess:

6 King = Eternity
5 Advisor = "Time"
4 Rook = Fame
3 Knight = Death
2 Queen = "Chastity"
1 Pawn = Love

King Alfonso X in Spain 1284, long before Petrarca's Trionfi (1355-74), knew different chess versions in his famous game book. One version was played with dice. A "6" meant "move the king" ...

6 King
5 "Queen"
4 Rook
3 Knight
2 "Advisor"
1 Pawn

The row is nearly the same, but the positions of Advisor and Queen are exchanged. Considering the difference between place (Spain/Italy) and time (1284/1355-74) let me think, that already Petrarca might
have been inspired by chess.

((In early myths (on the Phoenician side - but only if you REALLY follow through the whole "way") you will also find an Innkeeper - but a woman. A bit unconventional in her tastes and social contacts and of somewhat questionable morals. IF you look at her with mortal eyes.))

The "Garland" of Le MONDE is in oval shape too and "C" shows how the "Card-People" gather there in oval form.

etc.
You're not understandable.

>> What in the suspected Tarot chess was really done is naturally a riddle. In one case it is suspected, that the king bishop became the Father Time, and on the negative female Queen-side bishop the Traitor. The king knight is assumed as the successful triumphator on a chariot, and on the Queen side the negative Death on horse. The Rook is assumed to have some relation to Fame-World on one side, and on the other the Last Judgment, the highest cards and the strongest figures in old chess (before the queen was promoted) <<

It does not work like that as you may get from the above. You should get first get comfortable with the "Liber Mundi" thread on "Aeclectic".

16 personas in Tarot (on the 1st level).
8 officers with their 8 special pawns in chess (as I understand it so far > A-2 is connected with the right wing "tower" and C-2 with the right wing "bishop" and so demonstrating the specific abilities of the concerned "officers" in an extended manner - correct? Please correct me if I didn't get it!)
8 (16) against 8 (16) in chess.
8 complement 8 in Tarot.
You give no link.
8 pairs in Tarot on the points of an 8 pointed "Star"
The 8 "halfs" of each pair do not go against the other 8 "halfs" in a competition.
They "discover" each-other in every meaning of this word.
And the next "condition" that every half experiences is inevitable and dependent on personal choice and reflection - and so the 16 become 18.

The level of 18.
Nothing like that in chess.

On the 18-level you will find the so-called "replacement cards" (PMB) grouped very neatly into 3 pairs and the card that is used as a 17th card and as an add on to the left half of the broken pair Sun/World (Sun < 17) stays No 17 in the TdMs.
The 18th card that is used as an add on to to angels on the "world" (18 > World) stays No 18 in the TdMs.

But the appearance of both cards changes VERY much from PMB to Tarot de Marseille!
Look ...

1. The Michelino deck has 16 trumps, not 18 or 22.

2. The number of trumps (or special cards) in the early Trionfi decks (since 1440) is disputed between researchers.

3. One group of researchers defends the position, that the Trionfi decks had early (c. 1450) already 22 special cards. The Cary-Yale Tarocchi fragment is interpreted inside this opinion with 3 additional cards (so totally 25 special cards with 3 theological virtues).

4. Another group of researchers assumes a slow evolution of the deck forms, also the number of trumps is considered as a variable. The earliest clear appearance of Tarot cards in the usual form (though with a variation in the row) is the list of a likely Franciscan preacher inside an anti-Trionfi card preaching.
http://trionfi.com/0/p/17/
(estimated for c. 1470-1505 according different opinions).
The first document with 22 special cards, which is (possibly) really connected to a date might be the Boiardo Tarocchi poem (January 1487) or the Sola Busca Tarocchi (dated to 1491). Both have strong differences to the common Tarot iconography.


Documents of relevance in this question:

1.1.1441 : Bianca Maria Visconti receives as a gift 14 pictures in Ferrara, made by the painter Sagramoro (who one year later appears as Trionfi card painter) from Leonello (whois one later the commissioner of Trionfi cards. The date "1.1." was a traditional day for "playing games". The expression "cards" or similar doesn't appear in the document.
http://trionfi.com/0/d/

Cary-Yale Tarocchi: is from before 1447, and the 11 remaining trumps include 3 theological virtues. This condition was interpreted by Micael Dummett to assume 25 trumps for an earlier version. The "5x14 theory" (see below) assumed, that the Cary-Yale deck might have had "5x16-structure", cause it used 16 cards for each suit.
http://trionfi.com/0/c/35/
Part of this suggestion is, that the Cary-Yale possibly referred to Chess with its construction.
Cary-Yale Tarocchi
Image

with a larger and readable version at ..
http://a-tarot.eu/pdf/cy-jpg.jpg
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=788&p=11308&hilit= ... pdf#p11308

November 1449: Iacopo Antonio Marcello recognizes the Michelino deck (16 trumps) as a "new ludus triumphorum". So he gives evidence, that Trionfi decks not naturally must have had 22 special cards.
http://trionfi.com/jacopo-antonio-marce ... e-lorraine
http://trionfi.com/0/e/03/

c 1452 (perhaps): The Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo deck is extant with 20 trumps. 14 trumps were made by the painter, who also painted all the minor cards, courts and pips. 6 trumps are considered to be of a second painter, who according art researchers worked much later. This was interpreted in the manner, that some cards were lost and replaced. This opinion was attacked by the so-called 5x14-theory, which assumed, that in the beginning was a 5x14-deck, which later was improved by the addition of 6 cards.
http://trionfi.com/0/f/11/

July 1457: A Ferrarese document reports the payment of 2 rather expensive Trionfi decks (the most expensive in all later Ferrarese productions), likely made for the visit of the young Galeazzo Maria. The report speaks of 70 cards for each deck, which is in agreement with the 5x14-theory (5x14 = 70), but not with the assumption, that a deck type with 22 special cards and 56 was used (22+56 = 78). Another possibility would be 22 special cards + reduced number cards, but it would be the first occurrence of such reduced decks in documents.
http://trionfi.com/0/e/16/

c. 1463 (personal estimation): The Charles VI Tarocchi fragment consists of 16 special cards and one court card. It was usually interpreted as a fragment of a "normal" Tarot deck (22+56). It was found in France. Considering the unusual composition of the fragment, I made the hypothesis, that this deck might have been a complete deck with 16 trumps + one example card for the case, that the buyer possibly would be interested to buy also the other cards. I assumed, that Sun-Moon-Fool replaced the earlier 3 theological virtues and received a deck with some similarity to the Cary-Yale-Chess hypothesis.
Charles VI Tarot
Image

with a larger and readable version at ..
http://a-tarot.eu/pdf/ch-jpg.jpg
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=788&p=11308&hilit= ... pdf#p11308

1466: The game name Minchiate appears for the first time in a letter of the poet Pulci to Lorenzo de Medici. It's not clear, if this "Minchiate" already had the later form (41 special cards + 56 others), but it might mean, that structural game variations were connected to it.
In one of the explorations it was considered, that the socalled Rosenthal-Tarocchi might have been rather early and possibly have had 96 (Fool and Magician merged to one figure) instead of the usual 97 Minchiate cards.
Franco Pratesi
http://trionfi.com/rosenwald-tarocchi-sheet

1477: A Bolognese document of 1477 reports the contract of the production of playing cards and Trionfi cards. The price relation between Trionfi cards and normal playing cards seems to have been 5/4, which lets one assume, that the price was calculated according the number of used cards. If one would assume 56 cards for a normal playing card deck, one would have 14 special cards and totally 70 cards for a Trionfi deck.
Franco Pratesi
1477: Bologna – Aritmetica per carte e trionfi
http://naibi.net/A/323-BONOZZI-Z.pdf

Further there are considerations, that also the number "20" might have been used once.
http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t= ... ght=sicily
... a longer reading with by-ways

Generally one has to consider, that documents with information about the Trionfi game structure are very rare during 15th century. None of the few relevant early documents confirms the game structure 22+56 ... as already said, till Boiardo Tarocchi poem. Instead other game structures are plausible. Experiments with chess structure might have been a greater factor, but likely there were also others.
Under the condition, that there are only few documents, naturally one cannot exclude a Trionfi document with 22 special cards, but it seems not plausible, that it was dominant, at least not according the momentary state of available documents.

Indeed there is another game - a lot book - with 22 elements. The object is rather different to Tarot. Nonetheless it's indeed interesting. And possibly it' older than the Trionfi decks. The pope and the donkey:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=663&hilit=donkey+pope

Image


German readers have an advantage.
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

#43
I'm sorry Huck.

You don't process my information in any appropriate fashion.
You don't stay on the subject and hop around wherever it pleases you.
Whenever I comment on your posts from my perspective and show you that there IS another way to look at things you don't come back and adapt your view or even refer to it anymore.
Or when you do you do it in such a way that it looks like you just found MY solution YOURSELF.
This is obviously not about the credit but about the integrity of the argument.

1. Musivisches Pflaster
2. Goldschmidt Cards

3. The Chess Theme (is a bit different)

The chess/Tarot correlations now seem to have understandably piqued your interest and you are on the verge of loosening up a bit - but still most of my input just gets buried under YOUR new topics that still don't relate to the theme of the thread.

You are not familiar with the fundamental cornerstones of this thread that are available to anyone who cares - and you refuse to be and you don't.
A conversation doesn't roll that way. At least not where I come from.

I would LOVE to comment on your last post but like every other former time it would be to no avail.

Between the 24 pictures is the very same myth about Apollon and Python that I referred to - only another version of it.
If you don't know about comparative studies in mythology and the study of source material in religion and philosophy you won't be able to recognize the message IN the pictures even if it slaps you right in the face.
LOTs of alchemical references are in there too.

When trionfi.com has nothing more to say about the "Ouroboros" on the ace of cups between the "Goldschmidt Cards" like that it is a "circled snake" this is beyond ignorant.
(But when Mr. Kaplan refers to the inverted "Ouroboros" on the Guildhall "ace of swords" as a "serpent... attempting to swallow it's own tail" that seems forgivable - at least around here.)
Commenting on my post only with "flippery pictures" because you think that the "dolphin" is a symbol for the "Dauphin" or a similar heraldic "device" without realizing that "Delphyne" is the nickname for the Greek Python ( > aka Ouroboros > and other aliases in even OLDER myths) and that the city with the oracle is "Delphoi" - not taking into account that after Apollon did slay the "earth dragon" Python he obtained the title "Delphinius" and also in other myths he showed early Cretan colonists the way to "Delphoi" while riding on a "dolphin" is paradigmatic for that state of mind.

So YES the "dolphin" on the card could/should be taken as a symbol for the "dauphin" by IGNORANT Renaissance onlookers. THAT was his purpose: to MISlead.
And you (obviously not only you personally) fall right into this trap and are pretty proud that you found it YOURSELF!
No alchemist could have done better as the illustrator of that card did - because he very well may have had an alchemist tell him HOW to do the picture.

The "West" had practically no genuine culture of it's own in the 15th century.
The "Renaissance" and "Christianity" and "Science" and "Philosophy" are paragons for that.
Art (and architecture) is a whole other case - but mostly the MEANS.
Art (and architecture) still interpreted the ancient themes in a contemporary fashion.
How can you even consider that a thing like "Tarot" is ROOTED in the vicinity of local Italian aristocrats?
By applying a similar "logic" to a search for the roots of "Christianity" you should surely arrive at the "conclusion" that it developed in the vicinity of the Vatican because you found some crucifixes there.

You don't have the tools at hand right now to evaluate the sources you use and are not prone to adapt even a bit. On every crossing of this labyrinth of your own making I try to introduce you to "Ariadne's Thread" again but you only hurry to the next tunnel without recognizing that you've been there before and did not find a way out.
In classical labyrinths by the way you COULDN'T go astray because there were no crossings.
Those happened into existence with the ignorant looters who visited there with their pickaxes from foreign cultures with no patience and out for the obvious.

I know most of the material that you linked to and you put this time really a lot of work into your reply. You edited the hell out of it - and not in a bad way.
I appreciate all that. But it is NOT a reference to my replies to you and does not relate to the clearly defined thread theme (as in TITLE!)
It is mostly a rehash of (to me) well known theories and false reasoning.
It is a closed circle argument.
A self-consistent version of "The WORLD" you are USED to live and reason in.

Much more a made up "Tarot Ideology" than "free thinking" after REAL observation with the proper tools at hand.


Image



Adrian

PS: Perhaps I should recommend watching the youtube video too...
Should I? Yes I think so! I really should!
Lots of funny fluke flipping Flippers there and a narrative that could very well serve as a magical mirror...

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

#44
You're not the first with the ouroboros here ...

Image


Image


Image


Image


Image


There's mostly a context to Saturn/Kronos and Father Time and not to Apollo and Python.

... but I'm not a fish, who bites in every worm.

At page 9 of 27 of your exploration ...
Image

... you speak of a foreign text with 270 pages.

I've seen the text. And I've said, that the text is eine "Zumutung" and I'd not promised to read it. Anyway, I'm mostly not so interested in the Marseille Tarot, for my favoured topic is 15th century.

That what follows after page 9 seems to be dependent on this text with its 270 pages. So you're in a trap. You've to engage to make this text understandable and somehow acceptable, or either you're in the situation, that you have to wait, that some good-willing person takes the crusade to engage with this monster.

Recently I asked you a question:
What interests me first: It's well known, that there was not only one Tarot card sequence, but a lot of variants. Does Charlatan mention this condition, or does he just postulate, that his row is just the true and real one? It's just a question, if he knows about these many other rows.


You answered:
If you really REALLY want to know that you should REALLY read my PDF.
Well, at which page? You lost me at page 9.

I know, that it is difficult to study our many texts. So I attempted to give you an overview, how complex the question about the sequence of the Tarot cards is. There are not only different rows of the trumps, there are (likely) even different number of trumps. And there are possibly also very different trumps. A lot of things, which are not explained by Marseille Tarot decks of 17th or 18th century.

The importance of the discovery, about which Charlatan is so exaggerated, that he promises wonderful and fundamental enlightenments about the Tarot, is rather relative. It seems, that he has found another way to explain the Tarot row. There are others, he has some competition. It just seems, that he drives another cow through the village.

But we're patient. We just wait, till he finds a better way to express himself.

Dauphine and the Dolphin
In the 12th century, the local ruler Count Guigues IV of Albon (c.1095–1142) bore a dolphin on his coat of arms and was nicknamed le Dauphin (French for dolphin). His descendants changed their title from Count of Albon to Dauphin of Viennois. The state took the name of Dauphiné.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dauphin%C3%A9

It seems not likely, that somebody in 12th century somebody thought of Delphyne, the Python (which gave its name to Delphi), when he chose the name "Dauphin".

1349 is interesting
The significant debts of Humbert II and the death of his son and heir led to the sale of his lordship to King Philip VI in 1349, by the terms of the treaty of Romans, negotiated by his protonotary, Amblard de Beaumont. A major condition was that the heir to the throne of France would be known as le Dauphin, which was the case from that time until the French Revolution; the first Dauphin de France was Philippe's grandson, the future Charles V of France. The title[5] also conferred an appanage on the region. Charles V spent nine months in his new territory.

There's another heraldic card, part of a Visconti-Sforza Trionfi deck.
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This naturally refers to Milan.

Another heraldic card, also from a VS Trionfi-deck.
This refers to Croatia, with had a chess board heraldic design. The Frangipani family.
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(detail)

A general Frangipani was helpful in 1512 driving the French out of Italy and away from Milan. There's some suspicion, that Isabella d'Este (one card has her motto "nec spes, nec metu", adapted in 1505) arranged some Trionfi decks made for the coronation of Maximilian, new duke of Milan (1512-15). Possibly she made various decks with personalized heraldic cards.
But the Goldschmidt cards are said to be of mid 15th century, according a pigment research (Droemer 1955). A Mr. Goldschmidt had been specialist for such technologies ... I don't know it for sure, but it might be that the cards got the name from his activities. And the Goldschmidt cards are rather different from the Milanese Trionfi cards.

From the Arnold Esch report (2013) about playing card imports to Rome 1453-1465 we know, that Flemish traders imported Trionfi cards to Rome. Possibly they lived in Italy, bought the cards in Italy and had their trade with them. But possibly these were Flemish products. Tournay was a well documented playing card production center during 15th century since 1427. One of the traders was called Tornieri, possibly referring to "from Tournay". In the critical period Burgundy reigned in Flemish region, and was a dominant factor in cultural European life. Burgundian traders
in Italy just at that time are not a surprize (1477 the Burgundian ruler Charles the bold was killed at the battlefield, and with that the strong Burgundian influence disappeared).
Huck
http://trionfi.com

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

#45
Dear interested readers I feel like I should explain to you (yes: both of you) why I won't reply to Huck anymore in this thread.

As you may have already assumed it is about his attitude.
True - but there is more.

When I came to this site and started this thread about my Unicorn's wisdom I struggled with the BBCode tech and couldn't get my pictures up - so I turned to Huck for help because Robert seemed to be occupied and Huck listened to all my queries and lent a helping hand when- and wherever he could.

So - in principle HE made this thread possible in a timely fashion.

With all techy problems of picture posting overcome I felt indebted to him and thought about "giving back".

So - I began a PM conversation about a topic of interest to him: The Sola Busca (Tarot) Cards.
It went on for a while and started a few days after I got this thread up. Basically it overlaps with the gist of topics you can read about in this thread and I'm neither in the mood nor habit to repeat myself all over again and again - so I will post MY "letters" to him in their original textual "gestalt" (and some further explanatory thougts of mine in addition).



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Maybe you (2 - yes: both of you!) can make more of it than he was able to...

Adrian

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

#46
Hello All. Let's continue then.



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Unfortunately I can not spare you the ridiculous comment from "The Metropolitan Museum of Art" where this treasure is held in custody. But unlike some other "institutions" in the museum business they did provide these marvelous pictures so they do have a point.


Filippo's burgonet:

"This masterpiece of Renaissance metalwork is signed on the browplate by Filippo Negroli, whose embossed armor was praised by sixteenth-century writers as "miraculous" and deserving "immortal merit." Formed of one plate of steel and patinated to look like bronze, the bowl is raised in high relief with motifs inspired by classical art. The graceful mermaidlike siren forming the helmet's comb holds a grimacing head of Medusa by the hair. The sides of the helmet are covered with acanthus scrolls inhabited by putti, a motif ultimately derived from ancient Roman sculpture and wall paintings."

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the ... name=label



You see that they suffer from a sister-strain of the same "cultural blindness" that is rampant in these "Tarot" parts of the net.

It derived from "compartmentalization" and "gullible trust in peers". Why would a "renaissance specialist" dabble in social interactions of the "Bronze Age"?
"That doesn't interest me" (as an around here well known acquaintance of mine put it so bluntly) would his reaction probably be if he was asked: "Why not?"

With such thinking neither Pythagoras or Euklid nor Newton or Einstein or even Kip Thorne and Sheldon Cooper wouldn't have had the verve to enrich our WORLD.

A "Renaissance Man" would have been appalled by such a closed-mindedness. The cultural ideal was the "POLYMATH".

"Compartmentalization" and "gullible trust in peers" is also a very handy political tool if you want to run things on a "need to know" basis. Auschwitz and Guantanamo "happened" because of these 2.


Do your own thinking yourself and learn to see what is right in front of you.

Adrian

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

#47
Hi folks. I hope you are all well.

I should probably go a little more into detail about "code" before I show you some "coding fun".
This was one of the reasons why I mentioned the "Copiale Cipher" before several times.

When you visit the official scientific site on that matter they explain in detail how they did proceed.
One of the first steps was to identify the original language that was "coded" to become the text they were looking at and an estimated time for it's original edition was helpful.

When they deduced that it should have been originally German BEFORE it was "coded" they could use several statistics for the approximate distribution rate of every LETTER in the given language.

And from there they went on. Some "logo-grams" (singular signs/symbols with the meaning of WHOLE words) stayed still unsolved but they were solved later from the context/content of the DEcoded text they harvested. That is in principle the "dumbed down" summary of the first steps of modern scientific DEcoding they used.

The "Negroli-Apollon's Delphyne-Burgonet 1543" is a totally different animal.

There the coding is NOT done with words or letters.
This code is done with META-DATA.

META-DATA are UNSPECIFIED data of every kind that come from ONE source.
Recently (2007) the NSA installed (for your protection) a search machine called "PRISM" that (or the upgrades) should practically be able to collect ALL CONNECTIONS of every given human being who is connected to electronic communication of any form WORLDWIDE.

DON'T panic! ONLY the connections - NOT the content. Right?
Right. But wrong too because if someone (or the NSA - or another benevolent Alphabet-Buddy) wants to get to know you better they can engage follow up protocols to "bond" with you more intimately.
When a certain "filter" of "perception" is applied to this - until that moment "unspecified data package" - the INFORMATION that can be extrapolated from your connections and the time frame they took place in becomes VERY specific.

It all depends on the QUESTION you ask. The answers are ALL in the package.
They care about you - you see?

See? Now I'm getting all sentiMENTAL and I don't want to go there...

If you want to hone your education on them (the META-DATA :) ) ask the NSA or watch "CITIZENFOUR" for your sake.


So... META-DATA.

The NSA does it BACKWARDS.
Men (or Women on that part too) like Filippo use(d) META-DATA foreward.
Every SIGN in his signature on the browplate of the token is a HUGE brick (in fact a MENHIR - an enormous building block) of INFORMATION.


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To DEcode the "text" you would have to know the "language" first.
OK - Italian it should be. He is from Milan - right?
Wrong. He is from Milan - BUT he does NOT USE that language for his inscription.
But I won't touch the "letters" here.
We would have to go through other languages.
Older. Not so "refined" concerning contemporary "taste".
Grammar. Shortcuts... ... ...

I will stay with the NUMERALS.
They are multinational and multidimensional in a way - or?
EVERY ELEMENT of the DATE has a special purpose and "CONtent/conTEXT" that can only be "experienced" if you KNOW where Filippo "comes" from.


Enjoy

Adrian

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

#48
You know...

...we should make this DEcoding thing a bit more interesting.
This is a wonderful opportunity to get to know each other better - right?

I give you a hint...
...and YOU come up with some good or even better ideas...
Creative. Informed. Educated. Intelligent. Fantastic. Speculative.
The SKY's the limit - agreed?

...and afterwards I show you how it's done.
That could be funny AND entertaining I think.
And a bit disenchanting maybe - BUT revealing.

Here it goes:



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What say you mmmh?

Adrian

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

#49
Today I come with an excuse and believe me: I'm very embarrassed about that.

I did totally forget to add a link in the very first post of this thread were I introduced you to "C's" scribd e-paper TRUE TAROT.

During my chat with Wilfried I was informed that the one link in the "Preface" of the PDF to a YT-video on page 2 didn't work anymore and I totally forgot to tell you.

My deeply felt regrets for that mishap here once more because it is essential for the understanding of the "mind-set" "C" recommends to his readers while reading.

All his allusions to "aeronautics" in TRUE TAROT and the further context can not be appreciated if a reader - interested as he could possibly be - doesn't have that backup info.

The movie is MONDO CANE (1962).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondo_cane

The last part of the movie (01:37:12) and especially the very last part about the CARGO CULT was the content of the original link in the PDF.

"At Garoka, New Guinea, there are indigenous tribes who go to church. The film concludes with a cargo cult at Port Moresby, New Guinea."

But the whole movie is REALLY worth a watch!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj5U8UbWqsk

Please - again - accept my apologies

Adrian

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

#50
Since today another birthday of mine just so happened again dear readers I feel obliged to share my joy with you and bring you yet ANOTHER hint as a present - regarding the MEANING of the DEcoded DATE - for your thoughtful consideration:

BE my guest(s) and bring all the friends that you want to the party!
Let's start the MUSIC (in just a few minutes):

These are artistic renderings of the same spiritual tradition/theme even if this may not seem obvious to you at the first glance/drop and these artists themselves were/are not (consciously) part of the TRADITION.
An exception is present in Wolfram von Eschenbach (ca. 1170 – ca. 1220) who was inspired through direct personal contact and so made the theme popular.

"Kyot the Provençal was the French poet who supplied Wolfram von Eschenbach with the source for his poetic epic Parzival, according to Wolfram. ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyot

"Wolfram does not mention Kyot until Book 8 of Parzival, where he abruptly names him as his source. Kyot's story is elaborated upon in Book 9, where Wolfram explains the Provençal had uncovered a neglected Arabic manuscript in Moorish Toledo, Spain. The manuscript was written by Flegetanis, a Muslim astronomer and a descendant of Solomon who had found the secrets of the Holy Grail written in the stars. After learning Arabic to read Flegetanis' document, Kyot traveled throughout Europe to learn more about the Grail and the brotherhood that protected it. He finally came to Anjou, where he found the history of Parzival (Percival)'s family and wrote the tale which would later be retold by Wolfram. Wolfram explains he had not revealed Kyot earlier because the Provençal had asked to remain anonymous until the right point in the story. Wolfram mentions doubters who had questioned him about his source, and says their skepticism only brought them shame once Kyot was revealed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram_von_Eschenbach

"In his Parzival he claims he is illiterate and recorded the work by dictation, though the claim is treated with scepticism by scholars."

(I can perfectly well understand his and their "problem". I have to keep in check my Unicorn all the time because He just won't shut up! That's not a piece of cake "all the time" - but TODAY it's really FUN!)

This goes back at least to the TROUBADOURS of the langue d'oc and further still...



1. PARSIFAL by Richard Wagner (1882)

"It is loosely based on PARZIVAL by Wolfram von Eschenbach, a 13th-century epic poem of the Arthurian knight Parzival (Percival) and his quest for the Holy Grail":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsifal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaANPNrAtpA

Especially KUNDRY'S BAPTISM (Act 3/Scene 1):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-9d4daVpBs


2. The Sisters of Mercy - LUCRETIA, MY REFLECTION (1988)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucretia_My_Reflection

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdWavfuHPwk


3. Die Antwoord - FATTY BOOM BOOM (2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_Boom_Boom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIXUgtNC4Kc


4. Die Antwoord - "FATTY BOOM BOOM" - THE MAKING OF (2012)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuGa0wfKfho



...and it's ALIVE!

Listen & Look & Learn

Adrian

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