Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

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Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Postby Adrian Goldwetter on 04 Oct 2015, 23:22

Hi.

Long time no see - but I remembered that I should show you some more pictures about the REAL nature of the XII (The Reversed Man) who was meant to be PLAYED "upside down" like I explained in the thread PDF and in the post before.

Here we go...



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There exist more of these "reversed XIIs" > IIX but you should have some fun too - or not.
Anyway you shouldn't bother too much about such "dyslexic mistakes" made by some "primitives" who couldn't even write 4 and 9 and 14 and 19 correctly with Roman characters...



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Adrian
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Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Postby Adrian Goldwetter on 09 Oct 2015, 12:24

...but if you really did bother about the "Reversed Man" and his story (and his destiny perhaps and why his "position" should be an issue) you might have tried (in your mind only of course) this (or a similar) approach:



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This card pattern I did use already with the 22 Great Secrets of the Jean Noblet Tarot here in this thread on page 4/7th post and I demonstrated how it occurs and develops there in detail - even concerning it's very special measurements and dimensions.
For more information read: TRUE TAROT on scribd and the thread PDF where all necessary links are covered.



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Here you can see how Paul Marteau solved the problem of "The DanZing Hanged Man": He skipped "the knob" of the crossing branch and painted it GREEN to make it "earthbound" again.

In the historical decks that show "the knob" on the branch this branch is usually presented as (dead) wood with a different color as the "gallows's posts" (lively) AND it has sometimes the same RED on the knob as the knobs on the "gallows's posts" (Pierre Madenié 1709) OR a red MARKER is nearby - on the ROPE perhaps (Rochus Schaer 1750) - what defines (as you see here > O) the position of "The REVERSED Man" himself - but only if he is REVERSED of course!

Of course he (Paul Marteau) refused to tie the rope AROUND the left ankle of "The REVERSED Man" (as I mentioned it somewhere here before... and I did mention too that The REVERSED Man can only remember his story while he is dancing... between The SUN & The MOON & under The STARS... mhhhhh... or did I not? I think I did... I'm pretty sure... )



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Here again a card (XII) serves as a "map" - just like "The WORLD (Map)" in TRUE TAROT does (the link is all over this thread and of course in the very first post). With an upright (or usually called hanging) "Pendu" there are no complete equivalents between the cards in this defined (read: TRUE TAROT) structure.

...but when you "reverse" "The REVERSED Man"...



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...you can see that Father Sun and Mother Moon shed a LOT of glistening tears while blessing The Prodigal Son.
He is young and he is dancing - so what does he care? He is BOUND to his unruly heart though and won't return home soon - and when he does he'll be back on the gallows - paradigmatically. He has to go through a lot - but he can only begin his journey after The 56 Lesser Secrets are installed in their assigned proper places for guidance.



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In another respect this "map function" of the XII does confirm a good part of the structure the "player" has built so far because the correlation between the rendering of the XXI (Le Monde) and the lines of the depictions on all 22 Great Secrets - as shown in file (K) - is useless to him for being a "master-plan" for the whole structure just like that Paul Marteau should have been using in his workshop when he designed this deck.

That "master-plan" > (K) can obviously not be "reproduced" on a table with the deck - only the structure can be produced at will with knowledge and patience on a plain surface (like a very big table - because all 78 cards are needed).



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Adrian
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Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Postby Adrian Goldwetter on 15 Oct 2015, 21:40

Back to the roots now - reversely speaking:



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Now you may understand where the "need" to hint at the "reversal" of The REVERSED Man in some Tarot de Marseille authors may have originated - AND they used this as a LOCK to which only your mindful eyes could find the KEY.



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When you look at this PMB formation that was derived from the card pattern in file (I) you may get the feeling that something isn't quite right here - symmetrically speaking.

Symmetry was a BIG thing in Renaissance art and taste. And this deck is supposed to be the "Motherdeck" of Tarot. So this Formation should have looked a BIT different.

And when you think about that it may come to your mind that Athur Edward Waite was quite obsessed with changing the places of 2 cards in the sequence (in his case the VIII went to the XIth place and vice versa. And the Numerals were changed according to that thought - but he didn't tell you all about his reasons!

Now he didn't have the chance (like you do now) to observe this ensemble(d) PMB in detail and he based his decision simply on (mostly) esoteric speculations he derived from the (free) masonic information he was fed through his contacts. And he was all wrong.

(And I hate to say it - but his biggest mistake was to give pictures to the Number Secrets. From a practical viewpoint and concerning the "frame task" these cards took on. But they (pics) offer some worthwhile insights in SOME places.)

Like you may discover yourself (that I even dare to think that amazes me really :) ) when you look for the cards that should be changed due to symmetry alone...

But hopefully you may even have the ability to look deeper and more (artistically) reasonable so that you may resolve this mindful puzzle completely...

And you should think about that the Brothers of SOME masonic lodges were accepted by Sufis (notably Brethren of the Naqshbandiyya turuq) as "Brethren".



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Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Postby Adrian Goldwetter on 20 Oct 2015, 17:43

Sooo... what is it with The WORLD?
Where did this card come from?



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The WORLD mimics the CARD PATTERN. The GARLAND that is...
(On page 11 of the thread PDF is revered to the 3 colors as a helping and defining device for dividing the card (and ALL cards!) in 3 equal parts so that a "ladder-structure" is achieved that serves as an "inbuilt gaming board"!)



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If The GARLAND was just a garland it could have been painted green - no?



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Instead many historical Tarot decks portrayed The GARLAND in a somewhat "discolored" way.



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Now: why would the authors do that? Maybe additionally to the widespread "dyslexia" in their circles they caught a contagious form of color-blindness too? Could bee...

But I want to suggest instead another solution that is rooted in "language patterns".
The French has "feuilles" for "leaves". And just like an English speaking person could say "leaves of paper" a French speaking person could say: "feuilles de papier" - and what are CARDS other than THAT: LEAVES OF PAPER!

So: The GARLAND is made of CARDS!



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Now: what about the IIII Guardians?

The lower left Guardian on her pedestal is a portrayed "heretic" - a popess (and so her ANIMAL comes WITHOUT a HALO - because from a "cleric's viewpoint" she is NOT "holy" in any way!).

Her animal is adorned with 5 leaves (of paper > CARDS).



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Her colleague to the right is presented as a LION with the same (5) features but DIFFERENT connotations. HE (the lion) is HOLY and so does wear a HALO!

(When you read again the last post on page 7 of this thread you will find a comment there that I made on the habit of the authors of Besançon-style Tarots who transformed THESE same 2 cards into JUNO & JUPITER - the Roman names for HERA the Goddess of women and marriage & ZEUS the God of sky and thunder. I said: >> ...that in a "semantic" sense both are very good choices (when you know for whom the II & the V originally stood and you consider in the case of the II the original etymological meaning ""young cow, heifer ( > for sacrifice)... " << . Please keep THAT in mind!)



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So here we look at the 4 Guardians - and only 3 of them seem to be "okay-ed" by Christian tradition (Bible etc.) - of The (EGG-shaped) GARLAND that could REPRESENT an (unbound) BOOK of LEAVES made of 18 secret pages so far because everyone knows what a KING and a QUEEN are. And every good Christian knows the HOLY father and some HERETICS (even when they come in very different varieties - and this ONE seems to bee a nice one though... )



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The Tarot de Marseille portrays the same situation. Paul Marteau took the respective 5 leaves for adornment from the Tarot said "ARNOULT 1748" that is available here as the "LEQUART edition 1890":

http://tarot-de-marseille-millennium.co ... llery.html

He did use foremost the lines of these cards. The "Tiara" of the II that grows above the picture frame is another detail taken from here. And Albi Deuter has a wonderful feature for such (and similar) research. It's called "Einzel-Karten-Vergleiche - Alle Decks:" = "Single-Card-Comparison - All Decks (in his library). There you can ogle all those conceptions and misconceptions side by side! I've just opened "The WORLD" for you:

http://www.albideuter.de/html/welt.html

(What's about that "outgrow" of her "Tiara" is shown in TRUE TAROT on scribd in the "addendum" that starts on page 223. It is like a dive into the "BIOS" of a (your) PC. Here you can learn WHY the 2 pillars of the popess are NEVER shown on the respective (historical) card (page 232 > 237) ... )



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And...

The papal name LEO is often chosen in history: 13 times.
Among those LEOs are some of the most influential in ecclesiastic lore.

About one of them: LEO IIII - catholic lore has it - is said that he was the predecessor of Popess Johanna:
>> Leo IV died on 17 July 855 and was buried in St. Peter's Basilica. Benedict III was Leo's immediate successor. A medieval tradition claimed that a woman, Pope Joan, succeeded him, disguising herself as a man, but Joan is generally believed to be fictitious. <<

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_IV

And...

When you examine The EMPRESS III you will find 2 wings on her card: it seems she SITS on a bird and her throne has as it's left backrest an angel-like big wing - to assure you (me) that this is HER correct place.


Another perk of the 3 colors is that you can understand the structure of The GARLAND more easily - not at first sight though:



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You can more easily make out that The GARLAND is made of 3 rows of leaves (of paper)...
...and that there ARE 3 cards of each color on each side of The GARLAND. But that's just a side-note on "alchemical counting" :)



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This is the most significant feature for finding The BOOK that defines the connotations of ALL 78 cards on the 1st level that devises the meanings to ALL cards as a mnemonic device.

That is a given in that specific culture. The SEAL of Melchizedek ((who is a venerated friend of God in the Abrahamitic (offspring) religions)) is used to remember the structure and content of that specific book.

That book went through several editions where foremost the succession of the chapters was altered - until the revised edition was acquired. But to confirm that you would have to dive very deep into (for you still) uncharted territory. Maybe you should try?

So: to find the defining book you should search for a chapter that is called "The COW" (that was perceived as a BULL by you because you got so exited to see the 4 totems of the Christian Evangelists... ) in religious scripture!

Here I made another counting method visible for you that mirrors The 5 LEAVES on The COW's back. And to remind you of the LOCK-function The REVERSED MAN has (I informed you about that earlier) I show him here BEFORE the EGGshell is broken and the habitants hatch.



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Same here - concerning the technicalities of The 5 LEAVES. You will find this card in chapter 5 that informs about ritual (you could say I suppose). But the titles of the chapters differ very much - so there is no way around to reading this all on your own - and you should keep in mind that in the 18th century The WORLD was MUCH simpler than today!



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Maybe in hindsight you can understand more and better what I've told you before. Could it be it would be worth your time to read it all again? I don't know...



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But: where did SHE come from after all?



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(I may find it necessary to edit the text of this post in days to come because I just did it out of the top of my head and it's a most delicate matter - but then again you understood so much at the first take... we'll see... )

Adrian
Adrian Goldwetter
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Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Postby Adrian Goldwetter on 25 Oct 2015, 15:18

Just for good measure and because I said so on the 6th page of this thread from the 7th post onward about the Jean Noblet Tarot...

...especially in the 8th post right at the end:

>> "So THIS model of his (Jean's) own is the cardinal reason WHY the garland on LEMONDE XXI is significantly more ROUNDED and circle-like in contrast to later (after 1748) GOOD Tarot Cards." <<

You can see here that The GARLAND and the IIII guardians on his and the later more standardized Tarot de Marseille versions is a VISUALIZATION of the 22 Great Secrets arranged in THAT special Pattern. That's WHY the PROPORTIONS of The GARLANDs differ!

Instead here is not the place and time to refer to the other significant differences between JN's choices and the later TdMs. This post is just about The GARLAND on the XXI.



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Adrian
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Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Postby SteveM on 25 Oct 2015, 18:41

Why do you persist! Please take this crap elsewhere... do you not realize by now this is the wrong forum to propogate such crap?
Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal; bad poets deface what they take, and good poets make it into something better, or at least something different.
T. S. Eliot
SteveM
 
Location: Turkey
Favorite Deck: Crowley/Harris Thoth
Aliases: kwaw, koy deli,

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Postby Adrian Goldwetter on 25 Oct 2015, 18:51

Hi Steve.

Interesting point of view! Please elaborate.

Just to clear that up: did you intend to pose >> Why do you persist! << as a question?
And because I'm no native speaker to your fine language could you please explain to me what "crap" means?
Additionally I'm not familiar with the word "propogate" and it's connotations.

If you could help me out here I would be ever so grateful because it's hard to come by well versed experts in communications of your kind Sir.

Adrian
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Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Postby Adrian Goldwetter on 26 Oct 2015, 18:11

Hi again Steve.

I found that you posted just today 3 opinions on 2 subject matters without returning here to answer my polite questions. So at least you are alive and well - but not well disposed enough to do me the courtesy I've asked for - so it seems.

Thanks to dict.cc I figured out what you were talking about - and I must say: LANGUAGE please! And: spell-checker - please!

You seemed to be quite aroused about the content of this thread being the "backs" of historical tarot cards as a theme of this thread and I went to search for some soothing remedy for you.

It can be found at Aeclectic in the following link were you can find some well respected contributers (even in your comunity) pondering about the "card backs" (title of the thread that was opened by eugim - also a fellow of tarothistory.com)

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.ph ... 310&page=2

Especially interesting is a post on the 2nd page by Rafaël who asks this question:
>> "Is there a direct link between Chosson and Payen, since they both use the same card back pattern?
Here's the Payen 1735 and the Payen 1760 from the Cary Yale collection:" <<

Picture from Rafaël:



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Now - as you would have noticed if you would have followed THIS thread from page 1 on - I do exactly THAT! Not only demonstrating the link between "Chosson and Payen" but the link that binds this "Tarotée-Pattern" to the long lost Secret of Tarot.
I sincerely hope that this context calms your bewilderment about whether THIS (The Unicorn Terrace) is the right place for such thoughts.

I really hope that I could have been of service for an elevated mind like your's Steve.
If not - please let me know!

Yours truly

Adrian
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Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Postby Adrian Goldwetter on 16 Nov 2015, 15:18

In hindsight and learning about Steve's above mindset I suppose I should emphasize a bit of what was done in this thread so far (among other things).

Obviously the measurements of the Tarot Cards and their respective meaningful frames are not treated with the attention and respect they deserve around here (and elsewhere - so far!).

2 threads of interested investigators I visited when I made the 1st post for this thread.


1) Card dimensions (by: hochichi - 16 Jul 2014)

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1030&p=15658#p15658

>> Hello, forum!

I'm curious to learn about what decision-making went into the size of Tarot cards -- say, for example, into those of the Tarot de Marseilles.

From what little I can gather, cards were made according to a 2:1 (height to width) ratio, very roughly speaking. (I'm surprised given the nature of the cards that they weren't printed on golden rectangles.)

One would expect that early Tarot cards would correspond in round numbers to some exact system of measurement. I haven't been able to find any consistent information on the measurement system used, for example, in the south of France -- or in northern Italy, for that matter.

Also: I would be very surprised if the thinking that went into the design of early Tarot cards wasn't in some way akin to that of early book design:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canons_of ... nstruction

Cheers! <<

From the Wikipedia link:

>> Tschichold and the golden section

Building on Rosarivo's work, contemporary experts in book design such as Jan Tschichold and Richard Hendel assert as well that the page proportion of the golden section (21:34) has been used in book design, in manuscripts, and incunabula, mostly in those produced between 1550 and 1770. Hendel writes that since Gutenberg's time, books have been most often printed in an upright position, that conform loosely, if not precisely, to the golden ratio.

These page proportions based on the golden section or golden ratio, are usually described through its convergents such as 2:3, 5:8, and 21:34. <<

Especially the 21:34 proportion is of interest when you dive into the Tarot Card Frames and paper format for it is taken from the Fibonacci Sequence that became crucial for western Sacred Geometry since 1202. It comes so close to the Golden Ratio of 1.618 that your PhotoShop program won't show ANY difference when you place one over the other.

http://www.livescience.com/37470-fibona ... uence.html

Since the Tarot de Marseille Tarot model is made by builders for apprentices it teaches the becoming builder who could solve it's secret(s) how to construct the Golden Rectangle without a pair of compasses or a circle at all.
All you need are square BRICKS of the same dimensions and you can build a door-frame for example by leaving out 21 bricks (or their multiple) in width and 34 bricks (or their multiple) in height when you build a wall. This secret is encoded in "alchemical logic" in the number 55 which is written "VV" encoded.
"The Beloved" could tell you about it. He IS a very practical man.

On page 6 of this thread from the 9th post onward I proved HOW the HISTORICAL Jean Noblet Tarot is not only linked to the Golden Ratio but constructed AROUND it!

In a similar way the historical books were constructed. The difference is that a bound book has a front and back cover that keeps the pages from abrasion when the book is read.
Not so the cards. As an UNBOUND book the pages were prone to suffer abrasion - so the PAPER format is not so much of a subject - only the FRAME and its proportions are - NOT the measurements of the "leaf of paper" in mm.

Another thread about this problem was made by EUGIM:

2) Jean Noblet Tarot (by: EUGIM - 10 Jul 2008)

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=90

>> -May be my good friend Scorpio Yves could help to me surely here... ( To translate to inches also )

1-I received from a very warm friend a deck as a gift the deck of Jean Noblet .
2-It s measures are 6,2 centimetres to 10,2 centimetres
3-If this deck is the oldest known ...
Why,when,for what the Marseilles pattern changed its form ?

:?:

eugim <<

Both - hochichi & EUGIM - were told that card dimensions were simply a "mood thing" of the makers (summarized) and so nothing to discuss (in principle).

But for those who are interested in such things:
I could show you how EXACTLY the frame of the historical Jean Noblet Tarot and frame of the ancien Tarot de Marseille 1930 by Paul Marteau (Grimaud) are related - and so in principle all other historical Tarot de Marseille card frames of that format/dimensions.

When I look out of my window the leaves keep falling - do you see?

Adrian
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Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Postby Adrian Goldwetter on 29 Nov 2015, 23:12

Well - I said:

>> I could show you how EXACTLY the frame of the historical Jean Noblet Tarot and [the] frame of the ancien Tarot de Marseille 1930 by Paul Marteau (Grimaud) are related - and so in principle all other historical Tarot de Marseille card frames of that format/dimensions. <<

So maybe I should - because geometry wasn't my strong suit either back in school and many children today don't even know HOW to construct a "golden rectangle" so I did it once more from another angle. I hope that you'll find it entertaining nevertheless.

Still I cannot educate you here on that "golden matter" and WHY the sages of old did pay so much respect to it's connotations. The "golden mean" was seen as the KEY to life itself. The whole Acropolis was built to honor it - but as I said I cannot go into WHY the authors of the best Tarot card versions incorporated this "golden key" into their frames - but you WILL understand THAT when you read about it yourself in all the sources you can find.

That is even the best way to understand the code of the cards and how they work when you do not (ab)use them for "divination".
Every card has several layers of meaning when you read it as a page of this unbound book.
This book is NOT written with encoded letters (like the COPIALE for instance... ) - this book is written with CONTENT - the content about any subject that you have already accumulated in your head through ANY process of learning.
So the cards work more like a filter and a storage system in the beginning - and later you will learn to make tools and weapons from your storage - according to the system.

I will try to give you an example. Astrology.
If you do not know anything about this subject you cannot learn anything from this encoded book - BUT if you know something and you come to that level of the "game" where astrology is the subject you can apply your knowledge to the upcoming tasks and learn while solving the riddle at hand some very new utilization.

Astrology in Tarot only works on the oldest level there is: 6 planets and the sun.
These 6 have several defined relationships with the 12 signs of the zodiac (18 [sic!]).
When you've found the wanted system and know what card stands for what planet and what sign they begin to define each-other so that a new layer of meaning is added to the ones you knew all along. This pattern is shown in the rivets on the cuirass of the charioteer (VII) in the above pictured aTdM by Paul Marteau of 1930 for Grimaud and the rivets on his yellow belt. The ANGLES are meaningful too. The rivet above his navel represents himself in that pattern (of 19) and he ((as the charioteer - a persona of the/a sun (-God) on this level)) does not partake in the game.
He is there to bring light to the business of S&M - Sulphur & Mercury - so that the REBIS can be born (among some other things... ) and to harness III + IIII + V (in Hebrew tradition this is the "Merkabah" and the charioteer presents "Metatron" in the historical TdMs) so that 4 cards stay at the same place and only 18 are dancing. This dance is done one by one because you have only 2 Hands: one to pick up a card and the other hand to move the next card to her new place that was occupied before...

HE (She) is the (19th) unbuttoned hole on the bloodstained white shirt of The REVERSED MAN on the PMB Tarocchi card of 1450.

Much later you will find III + IIII + V as the MOTHERS between the Hebrew letters and the charioteer of the VII with his strong hand will be "Kaph " - the 11th letter.
All 22 letters will be aligned in their natural positions like a necklace of pearls on a string.

Enough of that.

If you have ever played a video game where the task is to solve problems by looking at ALL the details of a situation even if you do not know the direction and what you are seeking for - you are beginning to understand how the cards work.

There was obviously no "handbook" that came with the historical cards - but still they got their meaning in "divination" from somewhere. This meaning is a mere and very faint shadow of the COLOSSAL library every card holds.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. The task at hand now are the scales...



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This package comes in 6 parts - so stay tuned if you like it - and my apologies to Steve: THIS is really not meant to offend you.



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Adrian
Adrian Goldwetter
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