Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

A good starting point for the connections between cathedrals, Alchemy and Hermeticism (as in Hermes) would be "Le Mystère Des Cathédrales".

There are translations available but it's a delicate subject. And I must warn you Huck:
>> The books are written in a cryptic and erudite manner, replete with Latin and Greek puns, alchemical symbolism, double entendres, and lectures on and in Argot and Cant, all of which SERVE TO KEEP THE CASUAL ( > common ? ) READER IGNORANT. <<
And why should we or I be interested about "connections between cathedrals, Alchemy and Hermeticism". I thought we talk about playing cards. Fulcanelli as a modern St. Germain is a little bit absurd, isn't it? He looks displaced in a forum for Tarot history. I don't know, why just this literary selection should be a "good starting point"? For what?

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Hello Huck!

It's so good to have you back and in "research mode" (partly at least!).

I sincerely don't know how you manage to keep a straight face while posting a reply as the above (1st on the 4th page).
Well - maybe you don't. BUT because I take you seriously I read the whole 3 pages again and found your questions answered already in several consistent and explanatory posts that I made in reply to your's.

When I read the following quote from your last post on page 3...

>> Generally we have here a spirit of cooperation between researchers with different opinions, and we help each other usually. <<

...I felt a heart warming rush of excitement I confess. This coming from you means really a lot to me.
After all that hustle. I thought that you would NOW live up to your own standards but was a bit disappointed in the aftermath of that outburst of commitment.

Now about my inquiry for your source of the "falconer". The "Goldschmidt Cards".
My question was not for my own needs - but after I read that mikeh couldn't find what I was talking about with pictures and links and all I got worried about the readers who may not be so familiar with them as YOU claim to be.
We'll see about that.

>> No, I just see a checkered ground. I've not the opinion, that it means a "musivisches Pflaster" from the Freimaurer. <<

I think this is very sad. And I did mention the "Copiale" for various specific reasons that I've explained already sufficiently.
That you finally came to your senses concerning the "musivisches Pflaster" as a specific German therm in German Freemasonry is highly appreciated.
I just regret that this revelation didn't happen earlier to you.

Concerning Mr. Lomas:
I made clear that I share his opinions only on some parts. The link I gave is NOT to any of his books.
The dates and events in the link demonstrate only how he comes to his views about RECOGNIZABLE Freemasonry in the building of the Rosslyn Chapel.
Obviously there were no REGISTERED Freemasons present because they took an OFFICIAL stance for that matter in 1717.
This "Lamas link" was entirely meant as a suggestion for the "casual or common reader" to look for himself and not trust the "official opinion" too much!

This is what I see when I observe the "Goldschmidt Cards".
(Some excerpts only.)


I mentioned those "background structures" time and again here in the thread and in my PDF (paying tribute to "C" and his TRUE TAROT)

I said that the falcon on the "Falconer's" hand is more symbolic than real. Here is why:


The Goldschmidt "Falconer" does NOT wear a glove which is highly recommended when you wear razor-sharp talons on your skin.


Just look at the skeptical face of the REAL Falconer and the disapproving look he gives the "amateur".
There are some dare-devils out there who practice "bare-backing a falcon" but by no means this is typical for a Falconer.
When you go through historical pictures of falconry the glove is always there.
But nowhere in historical falconry "a carrying device for a falcon to have the hands free" (I cite here loosely and from memory what I read when I clicked sometime ago at the representation of this card and couldn't stop laughing for some minutes... ) like the "ring" can be found.

There are good reasons for that but you really should educate yourself Huck!
Like you know there are so interesting FREE sites - even about falconry.

But what is the man on the "Goldschmidt Card" doing?


Now Huck - if you would have any understanding of the goals in Freemasonry and how the "Trasel Board" is used and for what purpose you might RECOGNIZE what the man on the "Goldschmidt Card" is preparing for because what he DOES is well accounted for BEFORE 1717.


There would be much more to say about the "Wheel" and why I said that this card is an example of an only half-understood Visconti pattern.
As a reference try the PMB ( < see? I learned the Abbr. code. Now mikeh can possibly find) "Wheel" and the Marteau/Grimaud 1930 X.
Both "Wheels" can go both ways. Clockwise and counter clockwise - depending on Fortuna's mood or the one who operates the winder.
The "Goldschmidt Wheel" is a "danaide" (a water wheel) totally depending on the flow direction of the river. What normally doesn't change. Or?
Why this is important can not be explained here in this thread. But you could work on it.

Another "Circle of Life" can be seen fully functioning here (without any recognition by or the like).


And when you have observed my JPG really hard you should finally know the name of the "Bishop" on the "Goldschmidt Card" - and your worries about "WHY alchemy, etc. " should have gone away...

I think it was Marco who cared about the inscription on the left border of the "Bishop" but I cannot say for sure. Huck's picture is better for that and I would go with "alchymical latin" as proposed in "Rosicrucian Literature". Even if Huck might have dating issues.
Of course translation is a BIG problem here. And Rosicrucians are only a fringe theme here in this thread.

And it could have been the same Marco (if my memory serves me well) who had some nice things to say about the "Goldstein Queen" and her PILLOW.
The castle she holds in her hands is the model for the REAL castle that shall be built.
The big tower in the middle of the 3 will stand where the black "ground line" of the model ends.
The 2 little towers define the outer limits of the "Net" - like pillars.
But the Queen will live in the big tower with the roofed crenelation. Ruling her realm ( > see TRUE TAROT please - there referred to as "The GODDESS".)
The door of the big tower will be exactly there where the "Armed Woman" of the PMB cards guards the door ( > see my PDF please!)


And while you are looking at the "Queen" you can entertain yourself with counting the little green crosses on the seam of her robe.
The same 2 numbers occur in my PDF. And in the "Liber Mundi" Aeclectic thread by "C".

I even sent you an analytical picture of the PMB World card (during our PM conversation about the "Sola Busca Cards") that points to the same numbers but I asked you not to share it. Now you may.

Your comment was:
>> Good observation. But what purpose should the PMB cards have to point to those numbers? << (From memory)


Even when I introduced you to the "Timaios" of (supposedly NOT) Plato (BUT of Pythagorean origin what is a whole other ballpark - cultural wise) you couldn't get over all those numbers in there - not even after I pointed you to the significant paragraph for the appearance of the XXI in the correct TdMs.

For the interested reader: The (slain) Ouroboros makes it's appearance there.

Speaking of "cultures": Last time I checked the "Renaissance" was not really about "fun & games" like in your statement about chess as the second BIG thing.

It was about people REdefining their cultural identity and the REdiscovery of their CULTURAL roots in antiquity.

You (and not only you dear Huck) seem to suffer from "cultural blindness" when it comes to Tarot (and Goldberg- ) cards.
Such (Christian/Italian/etc... ) bias won't serve anyone well as an explorer of the unknown.

Comparative studies in religion, metaphysics, ancient history and arts, languages (Phoenician is the root language for our alphabet and many other important others... and those Phoenicians were the only people by the way who wrote 4 as IIII - like on Sola Busca and Tarot de Marseille cards) and much more the like should be on the plate.

From now on I will only answer to replies directly referring to the defined thread themes.
If you Huck (or any other member) should come up with other things I will look at them and go through them and see what I can take to further my goal.
If nothing interesting comes up I will post from time to time some of my thoughts as I deem fit.
Or not.

cu (or not)


Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret





En 1457, Louis eut la satisfaction de voir arriver sa femme, Charlotte de Savoie, qu’il avait épousée contre l’avis de son père, et le 17 juillet 1459, à Genappe, la dauphine mit au monde un fils que l’on appela Joachim. Le choix de ce prénom, celui du père de la sainte Vierge, laisse perplexe. Qu’avait donc en tête Louis en donnant ce nom, totalement inusité dans la dynastie capétienne, à un enfant qui, normalement, devait régner sur la France ?

La chronique raconte que Philippe le Bon accueillit la nouvelle de cette naissance avec des transports d’enthousiasme. Il fit à l’enfant et aux parents des cadeaux somptueux et il tint à être parrain du petit Joachim : « De raconter les honneurs et richesses qui furent faictes, ce serait trop longue chose. »

L’enfant ne vécut qu’un peu plus de quatre mois. On lui fit des funérailles somptueuses à Sainte-Gudule, à Bruxelles, et on l’enterra dans la basilique de Hal, où l’on peut toujours voir son mausolée.

Les quatre premiers enfants du futur Louis XI et de sa femme Charlotte de Savoie naquirent au château de Genappe : trois enfants morts jeunes, puis Anne (1461-1522), future dame de Beaujeu (1474), duchesse de Bourbon et d'Auvergne (1488), comtesse de La Marche et enfin, régente de France (1483-1492) pendant la minorité de son frère cadet Charles VIII.
Falcons were so highly valued that they were worth more than their weight in gold when used as coinage in ransom negitiations. During one particularly bloody crusade in the late fourteenth century, the Ottoman Sultan Beyazid captured the son of Philip the Bold, Duke of Burgundy, and turned down Philip’s offer of 200,000 gold ducats for ransom. Instead, Beyazid wanted and was given something even more precious: twelve white gyrfalcons. ... l-england/

Louis XI spend most of his time in Genappe for hunting. Burgundy was famous for its falcons. Galeazzo Maria bought falcons of Burgundy.
Charles the Bold is said to have been an excellent chess player. Galeazzo Maria and his knights gambled by betting on the results of chess games.


Heraldic device of the Dauphine.
Louis XI was the Dauphin, before he had to escape the attack of his father (1456). He went to Burgundy and Genappe.
Coin of Dauphine with crowned dolphin.

******************** ... 0672-h.htm
Very early freemason on musivisches Pflaster ... :-)
(1474, Caxton; one of the first printed books in England)

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

What an informed and unbiased reply Huck!

Really bald I would say - as in old and been around a lot and got nothing new or revealing to tell.
Because you chose a French citation please elaborate.
Not for me - I know already that there is nothing in there - but as you know some other readers might also want to share your wisdom.

About the English snippet on the value of special falcons:
You didn't really think that my "symbolic-falcon-thing" was about the MONEY???!!! Or DID you?

If yes - please read and LOOK again.
The GLOVE is the issue.
Or better the ABSENCE of that tool of the trade on the Goldschmidt Card called ironically "the falconer" by researchers like you who suffer from cultural blindness or bias.

Why do you post pictures of "Flipper" in this "context" if there is any (crowned or not - but neat!)?

In reference to your "Saint Catherine's Wheel" issue (I suppose that by this means - without WORDS and many pretty pictures - you want to express your steadfast discount of my "danaide" opinion?!)...

...I made a pretty picture too.


I hope you like it!


PS: I didn't get the Gutenberg humor. That means I could't access it with my magical keyboard. Please try again!

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

In the meantime you corrected the Gutenberg pic. Thanx for that!
Now I can see!
And I see what you mean you rascal.
You could be right in your assumption I suppose. I WILL think about.
I promise! But later after I can quit LOLing & ROFLing around.
This can take a while.

So I won't be back soon.


PS: Did you recognize the "jesters" in the picture? No normal chess I suppose.
Could be a secret branch of your family concerned with a highly secret ritual.
I always knew that you had something to tell.
Please open up friend!

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Oh Huck your Gutenberg humor vanished again... !
You wouldn't have had a hand in that?
Supposedly not.

Finally I could grab it with my magical keyboard so that the early "Huckster" can stay forever!
It was sooo funny and I couldn't let it go into forgiveness - you possibly understand that?


What I find interesting is that the "illustrator" for a revered book on a major theme in the gaming world was not aware of the fact that apart from "pawns" (8) every chess piece appears only once (K+Q) or twice (c+b+k).

I have a problem with the JESTER (regardless what chess piece the "illustrator" was trying to "portrait" while he slaved away for his master).
The JESTER - until now totally unknown to me as a chess piece - makes it's debut on the chequered board 3 times on every side.
3 black JESTERS and 3 white JESTERS.


Why is that?
Supposedly this is an early form of 3D chess judging from the table the "Huckster" uses with it's gigantic magnetic board.

OR: he could plan to nail the innocent chess pieces to his Net-Pattern window panes? What do you think?
By the way did you know that in Startrek they have made room for a "Unicorn" in 3D chess? Funny huh?
So why not a JESTER in early chess. What do I know. You are the expert here on the chess scene.

Anyway I wouldn't trust the guy in the picture. He looks very suspicious to me. His glinted eye makes me... I don't know...

And the "illustrator"...
Let me tell you: a clear case of DUI.
Drawing under the influence...

Been there. Done that.


Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret


Jester in Courier-Chess, a very old chess variant, reported by Selenus, the big man in Wolfenbüttel.

The board size is 12x8 fields.

In normal chess the bishop was called "Fou" in France.

In the farspread Cessolis interpretation the A2-pawn was interpreted as a sort of jester, gambler or messenger.


You and your picture have selected likely two different officers (whatever these were).

... and following pages

Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Thank you Huck!

That was actually a very good post.
Informative and helping the other out - just like you said the spirit around here used to be.

So there was a jester called "Schleich" in early chess.
And a "jester" called variant with a different sized board.
I didn't know that and compared to me you seemingly ARE an expert in knowledge about chess and it's history.

So chess has become another FRINGE theme in this thread.
I'm glad to know that!

I especially liked your last 2 pics about the "Cessolis Interpretation" where the A-2 pawn is given LIFE and FLESH.
I assume that the "pawn-chess-man-A-2" didn't change it's wooden appearance very much on the board and this is a "characterization" of the special duties and skills he could perform in the hands of an advanced chess-player.

The A-2-pawn character seems to be a mixture of Le BATELEUR and Le MAT.
The chess-bishop was regionally called "Fou".

These different "visualizations" point to a core-knowledge of a 3rd kind from which both were taken.


In chess every game can look different.
The number of possible moves is considered nearly infinite in modern game theory.
If you apply this thinking to Tarot you will always end up using the cards in different configurations.
"The Unbound Book Of Leaves (For Kings)" must have ONE definite order for the "Leaves" - otherwise it couldn't be read as a text corpus.

"C" shows in his text on scribd how that book is bound. ONLY the binding!
The first HALF of it.

In an older comment on 4 hares I think it was, he tried to explain to the learned side owner how the first moves in Tarot with the Marteau/Grimaud 1930 lead to the first significant combination: "The Landscape Sequence"

The "moves" with the cards do not change. Every layout is the same. Card after card.
And it goes on and on and on...
The cards begin to "talk" to the "reader" through the little hints in their pictures.
But before they can begin to do what "C" describes in his comment you would have to establish the fixed places for the 56 lesser secrets.

Think of them as the "front and back cover of a book" the thick paper or leather that hold the "leaves" together.
Or the boarders of a chessboard - but tilted 45° and like in your "Jester in Courier-Chess picture" of different proportions.

I try here in this thread to introduce the INTERESTED reader to that method that is totally different from any other book about Tarot.

If you want to help or understand Huck try to apply your huge factual knowledge in a new way.
And start by commenting on my thread PDF.

It was a pleasure


Re: Tarotée - The Back-Door To The Secret

Adrian Goldwetter wrote:I especially liked your last 2 pics about the "Cessolis Interpretation" where the A-2 pawn is given LIFE and FLESH.
I assume that the "pawn-chess-man-A-2" didn't change it's wooden appearance very much on the board and this is a "characterization" of the special duties and skills he could perform in the hands of an advanced chess-player.

The A-2-pawn character seems to be a mixture of Le BATELEUR and Le MAT.
There's a second "funny" figure, the "Kellner" or "innkeeper" in the pawn professions (C2-pawn). The "innkeeper" appeared occasionally as an expression for the Magician position. The first known Fool (PMB) in Trionfi decks looks like a "poor Fool", comparable to this version:



with some tradition from the earlier Giotto-Stupiditas (begin of 13th century)

The chess innkeeper:




Tarot innkeeper

1567 Piscina text (translated by Ross Caldwell, Marco Ponzi, Thierry Depaulis)
momentary not reachable, mentions in his text a relevant theater play,
It seems, that the noted comedy should be
also mentioned at
set in relation to Laelia, another comedy
which is regarded as a remake ... q=&f=false
and still contains the two innkeepers
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=371&p=4811&hilit=p ... atre#p4807

"Baldo" of Folengo (c. 1517-21), Folengo occasionally wrote about Tarocchi
The figure "Boccalo" in the Baldo is a combination of innkeeper (he's the cook) and Bagatello (he has a table and he demonstrates a game with balls).
Innkeeper and Bagatello are known names for the Tarocchi card of the Magician.

Master Ingold (1432) noted a 4x13-deck with 8 lower court cards. The figures are likely an irony on the 8 pawns or 8 chess officers:
"Nun sind auf dem kartenspil fier küng mit iren wauppen, und hat ieglicher under im XIII karten, das macht an ainer sum LII, und hat ieglichü das zaychen irs küngs. Etlich kartenspil hat dar zu fier küngin und fier junkfrawen, etlich haben den ackerman, den edelman, den wuchrer, den pfaffen, die toypel, den riffian, den wirt; und gewint ie ains dem andern ab: dem edelman der wuchrer, dem wuchrer der pfaff, dem pfaffen das täppelweib, dem täppelweib der riffian, dem riffian der wirt, dem wirt der weinman, dem weinman wider umb der pauman der den wein pauwen sol, der nimpt das gelt wider von dem wirt."
The "Wirt" plays a key role. "Toypel" is a hooker (queen), and "Riffian" is a pimp (king). The Edelman becomes poor, and the real winner is the pauman, der den wein pauwen soll.


It was a common stylish element of early Italian theater to have funny, often treacherous servants, often 2 figures, if not servants, then a least low people. Naturally these were the figures, which made the comedy.
Of special interest is the Leon Battista Alberti "Philodoxus" (1424) ... ... umento.pdf ... ostcount=6
Well, it doesn't have an innkeeper.

You wrote
The chess-bishop was regionally called "Fou".

These different "visualizations" point to a core-knowledge of a 3rd kind from which both were taken.
The original Eastern figure of this chess position was the elephant, which indeed appeared also in early Italy. But it was in a creative manner redefined to bishop (England ?), to the Adviser (Cessolis), to the Bowshooter as a military figure (Eastern idea), to the German Läufer, likely inspired by the figure "Renner" or "Courier" in the Courier chess game, which was mainly a German game, in France to the "Fou". Interestingly the original elephant became involved in the figure of the rook.


What in the suspected Tarot chess was really done is naturally a riddle. In one case it is suspected, that the king bishop became the Father Time, and on the negative female Queen-side bishop the Traitor. The king knight is assumed as the successful triumphator on a chariot, and on the Queen side the negative Death on horse. The Rook is assumed to have some relation to Fame-World on one side, and on the other the Last Judgment, the highest cards and the strongest figures in old chess (before the queen was promoted)

You wrote:
Think of them as the "front and back cover of a book" the thick paper or leather that hold the "leaves" together.
Or the boarders of a chessboard - but tilted 45° and like in your "Jester in Courier-Chess picture" of different proportions.

I try here in this thread to introduce the INTERESTED reader to that method that is totally different from any other book about Tarot.

If you want to help or understand Huck try to apply your huge factual knowledge in a new way.
And start by commenting on my thread PDF.
What interests me first: It's well known, that there was not only one Tarot card sequence, but a lof of variants. Does Charlatan mention this condition, or does he just postulate, that his row is just the true and real one? It's just a question, if he knows about these many other rows.

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